Standard in TAB

John Hanusch · Post by **John Hanusch** » 10 May 2000 7:54 am

I vote with Johan & Mr. Lee on Roy's new tab. I'm a relative newbie and only been at this learning process for about 3 years (0 music/instrument experience before ) .
I like the simplicity, compactness and basis of standard music notation, which I don't know, but this will help me learn directly with NO clutter. I think this is a big opportunity for some of you computer types to come up with a program that could take this new proposed tab or our more traditional, existing steel tab, or a combo like Don Curtis' and convert/translate it to any of the other ones. That way most should be happy. ??Might it be feasible to take pedal or non, in any tuning, any # of strings, and spit it out again with as many possible options?? Maybe just KISS (keep it simp, etc.) for now, for people like me.
But, please, let's also try to come up with a standard for knee lever use, at least for a basic 3 pedal and at least 3 or 4 knee lever, E 9th setup (for a basic beginner like me). Maybe like the "up" or "down" arrows next to the strings for the knees??
I think this could be the start of something great for all of steel guitar. "Take it away, Johan"

Bob Kagy · Post by **Bob Kagy** » 10 May 2000 10:00 am

Roy's answer to "how did you do that" as I recall was that somebody set up his copy of Paint with all the symbols he'd need, which he then used to produce his hinted notation. Hopefully Roy will tune in and explain further.

But when I saw his stuff the first time, I really liked it and looked for something to produce similarly notated score. The Cakewalk Scorewriter works pretty good, but will not produce 10 string tab. For that I use ClicTab. I'd really like to put them together but have found no way to do that as yet (except for brute force approaches involving either huge computer files or glue, paper and scissors).

I agree with Bobby - I've also hinted sheet music and am able to come back to it months or years later and easily remember how it lay on the pedals, strings and fretboard.

So I like Roy's idea. Joe's illustration is good too since it gives the note values and timing.

I don't read music well yet, but what effort I've put into it so far is beginning to be felt every time I pick up a new piece of sheet music and find it can be more quickly and easily laid out on the guitar. And that can make you feel pretty good.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 10 May 2000 11:50 am

I'm no real musician, but I can wade through the notation given a little time and I can find to notes on a keyboard if not the fret board.

One other obvious advantage to this notation is sharing lines with other musicians, e.g. twinning with lead, fiddle and horn players. Just like standard notation, but you get tab and they don't.

Heck, if players of other instruments can learn to sight read, why not steelers?

I like it.

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HagFan

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 10 May 2000 1:40 pm

Several things come to mind here. First off, I believe tab is a valuable tool for beginners, but once somebody has a basic understanding of the instrument, I think they should pretty much forget about tab altogether and read music.

Having said that, I must also point out that conventional notation has some serious limitations in regard to the pedal steel guitar. Mainly that with it's emphasis on telling you what the notes are, it does not tell you whether to play those notes with the pedals or knee levers activated. Any given note on the 4th string can appear in 4 different places depending on what pedal or knee levers are used.

Nevertheless, one can read notes on a pedal steel guitar. It's just that like everything else about this instrument, you need to know a lot in order to do it. I wrote a section on reading music in my now unavailable "music theory for E9 players" book, which has been rewritten to be used as a article in SGW at some time in the future. If anybody wishes, you can E-mail me I'll send you the file.

As far as tab itself goes, I think Al Brisco and Jimmy Crawford have the right idea. which is not to tell you to activate a specific pedal or knee lever, but to raise or lower a specific note. Telling somebody to go to a certain place had hit a certain pedal doesn't teach them about music. Telling them to raise the string a whole tone does.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 May 2000 1:59 pm

Any given note on the 4th string can appear in 4 different places depending on what pedal or knee levers are used.

Right, that's why we need the hints. Guitar music is often hinted with the fret number. It really makes sense to do that for steel, too. If the position is still ambiguous (some notes can be played on two different strings at any given fret), then you add a hint for the string number or the pedal.

The purpose of reading music isn't to teach you to play steel - it's to teach you to play a particular piece of music. So I agree with you, Mike. Tab is a valuable aide in learning the instrument, but it's not very good for communicating music.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0bstamp.gif" width=72 height=72>Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 10 May 2000 5:27 pm

Sorry I have not got in on this thread a little sooner but I have been out of town
visiting for the past several days.

My Preludio Music is based on Classical Guitar tab as was mentioned by someone a little earlier. That explains my choice of music. I modified it for Steel Guitar and there are no doubt ways to make it better.
At the time this was put together I also
wrote a paragraph or two to introduce the
method and I quote as follows:

___________________________________________
APPROACH TO READING THE MUSIC
PRELUDIO NO. 7

1. The numbers beside the notes indicate the strings to be played.

2. The numbers under the staff are FRET locations. The symbols for Pedal and Knee Levers are right alongside.

3. It should be noted that in a few cases where there is repetition of strings to be played and where fret positions
remain the same, numbers were not repeated.

4. The Symbols A and B stand for the standard pedal changes— B's to C#, G#'s to A.

5. K- lever lowering E's. Also for lever lowering the 9th string one half tone.( You can make the distinction by
noting the strings in play.)
K+ lever raising the E's to F

By knowing the names of the notes on, above and below the staff, meaning of the key signatures, and the
note time values, this music is quite simple to translate to your guitar.

The major advantages over tablature are obvious:

(A) The timing factor is now included
(B) Less lines less space factor;
(C) You can now establish quite easily the names of the notes you are playing.
(D) General Advantages associated with being able to better understand and read music.

_____________________________________________

The Preludio music was the only score I ever wrote for steel guitar using this approach/method. In retrospect I perhaps should have used a more familiar song and one that kept the notes on or closer to the staff thus making it easier for initial understanding.
I really don't know whether it is something that would work for most of us or not. If I had the custom software I would certainly use it for my own purposes.
At present I am using Ron Turner's ClicTab which I support with sound wavs. That is the best way to make it work and communicate in my opinion.I don't use the musical staff above the regular tablature because it just takes too much work/time and paper.
I think it great that we are talking now about a better way to write music for our instrument. Mine is only another suggested approach for consideration. I would like to see others.

Roy T.

[This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 10 May 2000 at 06:30 PM.]

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 10 May 2000 8:56 pm

After reading Roy's post... That's it, I'm sold on this psg notation structure.

Roy, I strongly agree with your notion that...

In retrospect I perhaps should have used a more familiar song...

IF you should care to post something that most folks know how it "sounds" , like... what was that post about most known intro... Was it "Night Life"?

That might help the rest of us "get it".

Regards and thank you Roy, -Dave

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Mullen D-10
<a href=http://home.earthlink.net/~davehorch/music>Photo page</a>

Ron Turner · Post by **Ron Turner** » 10 May 2000 9:44 pm

Looks like a great way to go. However, on the flip side shouldn't we move towards the standard of the industry type tab like the guitar tablature where it shows the fret numbers on the strings and the notes above? Or do we create another of our own thing that other instrument players may not understand? Just throwing out the question.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 10 May 2000 9:58 pm

Ron: Sounds good! Can you write a brief
sample for us either here or even on your site?

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 11 May 2000 4:41 am

Roy, I also agree with Al Brisco and Jimmy Crawford as to the more universal approach to pedal and knee assignments. The A,B,K system severely limits it to simplistic setups, those of which most of us don't use. Now, how to configure that into you're system, that's another problem. You could put a sharp or flat beside the string number but you'd have to be careful not to make it seem that it referred to one of the notes, artificially sharpening or flatting it. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 11 May 2000 at 05:44 AM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 11 May 2000 5:41 am

A minus/plus on the immediate right hand
side of the applicable note(s) on the staff
should take care of the point you bring up
John.
It may take a little longer from the reading standpoint but it is a great idea in that it takes some of the clutter away and it is more Universal.
Roy T.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 11 May 2000 5:58 am

Actually, Tommy Roots had a similar system, but he added +1/2, or +1, or whatever, to the tab. Seemed a little unwieldy to me, but it worked.

To me, the best case scenerio would be to have standard notation on top, tab on the bottom. What we need, IMO, is the software to annotate time parameters and the nuance that we don't now have. I'm not concerned about how much paper it's taking up, but to have the tab right below standard notation would be the easiest way for me to move toward learning to (site) read standard notation. But once again, the most important thing for me would be to have the software capable of delineating what needs to be shown, not just lines and numbers with simple mark-ups. I'm not aware of anything that can do that now, however.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 May 2000 10:18 am

In tab, I like using sharps and flats to show the effect of pedals. The standard standard musical symbol for a double sharp is an "X". So you end up with something that looks like this:
<pre>1 _________3_______________________
2 ________________3b_______________
3 __3--3#__________________________
4 ____________3____________________
5 ____________________3X--3________
6 ____________________________3#___
7 _________________________________
8 _________________________________
9 _________________________________
10_________________________________ </pre>If you know what your pedals and knee levers do, this is easy to read. If you don't, you'll learn in a hurry! It still suffers from the other limitations of tab, but it removes the confusing letter names and it allows the use of non-standard pedals.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0bstamp.gif" width=72 height=72>Bobby Lee quasar@b0b.com gigs CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra S-8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (D13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 11 May 2000 at 11:18 AM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 11 May 2000 11:25 am

Bobby, what you just outlined is very similar to Jimmy Crawford's Musym-tab system.

I agree that if one must use tab, it's better to have the tab explain what is happening to the string rather than saying "press pedal A or knee lever L," but I still think it's better for people to learn to read music than rely on tab. (Except for beginners.)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 May 2000 12:02 pm

Yes, that is Jimmy Crawford's Mu-Sym-Tab method. I didn't mean to take credit for it.

Henning Kock · Post by **Henning Kock** » 11 May 2000 12:44 pm

May 11, 2000
Hello Johan Jansen from Holland. You mentioned this midi device on a steel guitar also could be nice making TAB. How can this be done? I only see it can make musical notation?
All the best
Henning from Denmark www.geocities.com/nashville/1520
henningkmusic@hotmail.com

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Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 11 May 2000 1:35 pm

Hello Henning,
thanks for the reply. What I ment to say is, when we would get a more music notation tab, like the fantastic Roy Thomson-way, it would be very easy to edit it for steel. It just would need little aprovements , which we could propose at this forum, together with the pro's.
I'm still convinced, that we procede like a trickbag kind of learners, when we stay on the "old" steeltab.
We only can communicate on paper with other steelers, but don't talk on a musical-notation way with all other artists in the world. But perhaps I'm wrong when I say that we keep isolating ourselves with this mysterious tab-language, and on the other way we complain that we get not enough credit and understanding from other than country-artists......
We, steelguitarists, are talking Swahili, where the used language is English.
And I thought that I'm only stubborn

(firesuit on, but I hope we are not that childish

) )
brrrrrrr. Johan[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 11 May 2000 at 02:38 PM.]

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 11 May 2000 3:11 pm

So, b0b, with your / Crawford's system, I take it you'd indicate a whole step lower as "bb"? What do you do for the 1 1/2 step lower on the tenth string of the C6? Maybe "BW" for boo-wah!

Sherman Willden · Post by **Sherman Willden** » 19 Feb 2004 1:10 pm

I apologize for bringing up an older thread. The notation shown in the first post makes a lot of sense to me. Has anyone written anything in that notation yet? If so, where can I pick it up?

Thanks;

Sherman
Listening to the Rachel Barton and Wendy Warner _Double Play_ album as I'm writing this.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 19 Feb 2004 4:22 pm

Sherman, I introduced that Music for steel guitar and might have done a few others in addition to the one in the original post of this thread. Unfortunately, they do not seem to be at hand.
To generate that I used a music write program along with Windows Paint Shop.
Somewhat time consuming.
If there was more demand I might consider writing a few more arrangements using country ballads.
I do thank you for your interest.

Roy T.

Joseph Meditz · Post by **Joseph Meditz** » 17 Dec 2005 10:34 pm

I just like to say that this type of notation is exactly what I was looking for. I have some background in classical guitar and so this looks familiar. As for PSG, well, I've been playing one whole week now! Besides what has already been mentioned, what I find lacking in tab is that unless you already know a tune you have no way of knowing by ear if what you are playing is correct.

Is more stuff like this available anywhere?

One comment about the notation. I would use roman numberals for bar position.

Anyway my thanks to Roy for writing it and Johan for posting it.

The Steel Guitar Forum ROCKS! Or should I say TWANGS!

Joe