My D13TH 12 string tuning

[Chris Reesor]

Yes, those would be the most likely ones to drop to get to 5x5, I think.
But which knees to move to the floor if you had a 7x5?
After all, there are many 7x5 S12 guitars out there.
I'd say LKLO and LKRO.

[Mitchell Smithey]

I heard Johnny play this guitar at the shop when he dropped by to work on it a little.
He really has something here. Its all there, everything from a normal double ten.
Not for everybody of course, but its all there.

[Johnny Cox]

To get to 5 knee levers it would require taking the LKRO off and replacing it with the normal C pedal as well as adding a pedal 7 to raise strings 4 & 5 a whole tone each. You would also eliminate LKLO tune the 2nd stting back to Eb and lower a half and whole step as normal.
I put the bahroom pedal on P1 because I wanted A&B in the 2nd and 3rd pedal position. Here is a 7 pedal 5 knee version of my D13TH which I like best. This is Day setup but you know what to do to switch to Emmons.

[Johnny Cox]

Thanks Bob. I like the timbre of it and the main thing is I only have to think in one key. I did change strings and tune it to D. Loved it at home and on a gig I played. I think I'll leave it at D.
I have the 5 pedal 7 knee version on my D-12. Not sure how I will do it on S-12. I kinda like not having to move my left foot as much as I would with 7 pedals.

[Johnny Cox]

Having shown you the E13TH 5x7, D13TH 5x7 and D13TH 7x5 this is most likely what I would do if I wanted to have a C pedal and the equivalent to the C6th 7th pedal. I have the extra knee lever because I don't like 1/2 stops and I like the 2nd string tuned open to C or b7. I will add that the splits are 1) P3 and P4, string 6 A to Bb.
2) P4 & RKR string 11 A to Ab.
3) P2 & RKL string 7 E to Eb.
Now that I've totally confused myself and probably some of you as well.

[b0b]

Johnny, I found that I often needed the root-lowering lever (your LKLI, like the E lowers on E9th) to lower only the high string in C6th-like chords. So, I disable it on the lower string if the gig is mostly swing music. It's an easy bar slant to get that note anyway.

My D6th evolved from an 8-string tuning that didn't lower the middle D at all. I played that for 6 years and got very used to doing the bar slant. When I "graduated" to 10 strings, I included the rod for the middle D. I activate it now when I'm playing folk-rock and country. It tripped me up once when I forgot to deactivate it for a showcase instrumental (Cherokee) on stage.

[b0b]

There are two very cool side effects of these D tunings. First is that you can get the open dobro string notes G B D G B D to do the classic hammer-ons and pull-offs of traditional bluegrass tunes.

The other is that the two inside pedals give you the Hawaiian B11th lap tuning: B D# F# A C# E. I use this for the instrumental "Sand".

[b0b]

Certainly not to offend anyone,,this is one of the MOST interesting threads to me and I'm sure many others,,,but,,,wouldn't it be better,,or less confusing to talk in terms of interval numbers,,,that way it wouldn't matter whether we are tuned in E,,or C,,or D,,,(timbre would just be a matter of personal choice) ,,just the interval that all other strings are relative to the root. Just a suggestion,,,and not to offend far greater thinking minds than me.

Here's Johnny Cox's D6th 7+5 idea in numbers for you, Sonny:



The big innovation (in my mind anyway) is RKR. When engaged, the #5 on P4 becomes a #4, the standard C6th change.

[Johnny Cox]

b0b, I get around that by having the major 7th on string 2 with RKR. I did think about spliting them on the two LKLs though.
Sonny, thats a great idea. I personally have a hard time understanding it looking at intervals. My music theory is weak at best.

[b0b]

Using the 2nd string instead of the C6th root lower lever - of course! You're brilliant, Johnny. The 2nd string also eliminates the need for the C6th "Bb lever".

The more I look at the 5-lever version, the more I like it. Most U-12 guitars are built with 7 pedals and 5 levers, so it can be put on many existing instruments. Here it is switched from to Day to Emmons (most players are used to Emmons), and color-coded with red for raise and blue for lower.



I love the idea of D13th as it's midway between E9th and C6th. But as Sonny pointed out, the timbre is a matter of personal choice. This chart would work equally well for E13th or C13th.

[Chris Reesor]

That's looking pretty clean and mean now. Only 25 pulls, not a lot for a U12, and only the fourth string has three raises,so you could steal a raise from string five with a Bradshaw gadqet. I'm thinking about getting this to work on an old 2 up 2 down MSA without split screws, but my brain is not yet sufficiently engaged.
Shouldn't be too difficult a puzzle with 3/3 or 4/2.

[Johnny Cox]

A couple examples of how some of the pedals work in E9TH and C6th type situations.
Ex#1 LKV looks to be just half of the Franklin pedal. True, but it's also the same as lowering the 5th string (G-F) on Cth as Reece Anderson and many others did/do.
Ex#2 The LKL raising the 4th and 9th strings is also the same as raising 2 & 6 1/2 on C6th.
Ex#3 P2 is the B pedal but is also the same as raising 4 & 8 1/2 on C6th.
This setup is like having a D-10 8x8.

[Sonny Jenkins]

Wish I could talk Johnny into setting this S12 Williams up with this D13 tuning,,,LOL. I know his time is very limited right now so I guess I may try it myself.

Hey b0b, could you put a set of strings together for this tuning? Maybe Johnny could chime in on the gauges he used,,,or it may be similar to the ones you use??

[Johnny Cox]

Sonny, I wish I had time to do that for you. Right now I'm always on the road.
The gauges are as follows. They could be adjusted to personal tension preferences.

E .014
C .017
F#.013
D .016
B .018
A .022p
F#.026p or .026w I use .026w
E .030w
D .034w
C .038w
A .042w
D .064w

[b0b]

I think these gauges would be about right. Johnny, do they look okay to you?
<pre>

1. E .014
2. C# .017
3. F# .013
4. D .015
5. B .018
6. A .020p
7. F# .026w
8. E .030
9. D .034
10. C .038
11. A .044
12. D .060

</pre>

We cross-posted.

I don't stock a .064, but I've found that .060 works well for the low D.

[Johnny Cox]

b0b, those look fine as well. The .064 mmight be a little heavey on my chart. I am taking into consideration lowering it so far.

[Sonny Jenkins]

Thanks guys,,looks like great minds think alike,,LOL! b0b, I'm ordering a couple of sets,,,Thanks

[Jon Schimek]

Sorry if this is ignorant, but I moved to universal recently hoping I would visualize the fretboard as a single tuning but with more pockets/moves. But I don't..yet.

Anyways as I gather this tuning directly attacks this issue and since the root moves around in standard universal, maybe it sorta has two modes even for experienced players (not music modes but e9 and c6).

Can I get your thoughts as I consider this:
1)in c6 mindset the 8th string interrupts big extended chords. Do you avoid huge rakes? Pick a grip for big chords.

2). I really like the full lower on 7th string for a step into a major chord in e9 but I don't see it much on copedants. How do you use it?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and tuning idea. Very interesting.

Jon

[Sonny Jenkins]

I just ordered strings but I didn't find any 60s?? If you have them please include them.

[Johnny Cox]

Jon,the cool part of this is you don't have to think in different keys.Think of it as E9th with a 6th in the middle or C6th with an added b7 and a 2 in the middle of the tuning. The 7th string lower is a standard Emmons knee lever, in combinationwith the LKV it is the same as the Franklin pedal but not as limited. And yes you do have to skip over the 8th some but I haven't found it to be an issue. It is nice to have that for single string stuff. Hope this helps.

[b0b]

I just ordered strings but I didn't find any 60s?? If you have them please include them.

I only have them in nickel.

www.steelguitarshopper.com/ghs-060-boom ... loy-wound/

www.steelguitarshopper.com/daddario-nyx ... d-strings/

[Johnny Cox]

I thought it would be nice to put charts for comparison of E9th, C6th and my D13TH. All the pedals and knee levers on the E9 and C6 charts are on my S-12 tuning with 7X5 as comared to 7X8. On C6th I put the knee lever changes as they are on my D13TH. It's all there in one key without the need to always hold or lock a knee lever.

E9th

Cth

D13th

[J R Rose]

Brilliant Minds at work here. It just leaves mine spinning.
Thanks for this post cause I do like looking and learning.
J.R. Rose

[Tom Gorr]

Some excellent thoughts here.. i agree that the RKR is the key of this approach.

On my D10 E9.. I have been experimenting with s9 as a c# and raising it to D to get a 6th root but can't say I love it.. but works better with E ups and down on opposite knees) because I cant get the D lower and E lower at same time.


My fear of a 6/9 tuning has been I might get hamstrung with the middle 2 tone in the 6th, and screw up my grip muscle memory and set me back 10 more years than I already am.

The coped has got to be fun just as an open string tuning. You could just jam with picks and a few passing bar tones and have a heck of a good time.

[Chris Reesor]

Tom, I think that might fly on your PP. The only place I can think of where splits are needed, IIRC, are on string 11 with RKR engaged and using P4 and P7. There has got to be some way to do this on a PP. Johnny would probably know.

How are your PP mechanic chops coming along?

Definitely would be a fun one for single note improvising with no pedals; from string 11 thru 3 no interval wider than a minor third, so every chromatic note is no more than one fret away. So that second degree on string 8 could be both a boon and a bane.

Ciao, CR.