History of the "Es Raise" Lever - from Lloyd G.

Fred Jack · Post by **Fred Jack** » 21 Jan 2006 6:43 am

Bill H; I second David's comment "its great to see you posting"! Reagrds, Fred

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jan 2006 6:53 am

Good memory, David
Yes -- on the first floor pedal
He only raised the 4th on that pedal
He also had a knee lever (left left) that LOWERED 4 to Eb/D# and RAISED 8 to F so he could use either the '0pedal' or LKL easily with the A pedal, where the D# would serve as the 9th scale degree of the C#Maj scale and he'd end up with a C#9 chord with either the root OR the b7.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Jan 2006 8:18 am

Lloyd and Pete brought the sound of the change into the mainstream by the licks they played which focused in on the levers sound. Beside hearing signature licks on two back to back #1's, they also helped advance the need for most players to add that change because they were using it alot after those hits and all the other players need to copy their artists session arrangement. The same thing happened in the 90's with the hits that used the F# to G# change. Almost always it has taken a hit signature lick focusing in on the bending sound of a specific change to advance the pedal standards within our instrument. Pete and Lloyd accomplished exactly that.

While researching songs for Martina's "Timeless" CD, we listened before each session day to various recordings from the 40's, 50's and 60,s of the songs for that day. Much to my surprise I heard recordings using the E to F change in combination with the A pedal on several records that preceded both Lloyd's and Pete's session career. I suspect either Crawford, Day, Emmons, Haynes, or Garrett was the player(s) using this change for inverting major triads instead of slanting the bar at that poaition.

Whether the change is on a lever or the first pedal next to A it makes no difference in its use.

Lloyd should always be remembered as the guy who made it very visible through a signature lick. And Pete as the one who got the wheels spinning.

As for me, I learned about that change through Hal and Weldon's recordings. Check out Weldon's mastery on Bill Andersons recording of "3AM" which I believe was the flip side of his hit "Still".

Paul

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Jan 2006 8:21 am

Does anyone know what year "3AM" was released?

Paul

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 21 Jan 2006 8:59 am

He wrote 'Still' in '63 and '3AM' in '64 (according to the copyrights). '3AM' was recorded on 9/3/64 according to this reference . It was on the 'Showcase' album on Decca with 'In the Misty Moonlight'.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Jan 2006 9:20 am

According to the single discography on Bill's website
http://www.billanderson.com/music/disc/disc2.html

"Still", backed with "You Made It Easy", Decca 31458, was released in '63.

"Three A.M.", backed with "In Case You Ever Change Your Mind", Decca 31681, was released in '64.

This fits with the respective copyright dates I found, same as Larry's.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 21 Jan 2006 10:46 am

Can someone explain why this change is so hard to tune, in relation to the rest of the guitar? When the F lever and A pedal are both engaged, the tuning is fine. Take off the A pedal to make a 7th chord, whew......flat.[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 21 January 2006 at 10:48 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 21 Jan 2006 10:48 am

The same thing happened in the 90's with the hits that used the F# to G# change. Almost always it has taken a hit signature lick focusing in on the bending sound of a specific change to advance the pedal standards within our instrument.

With all due respect, Paul, whether the F# to G# change is an "advance" is an open question in my mind. I understand its use thoroughly, but I still don't feel the need to add it to my guitar. Musically it adds very little to what was there before it, in my humble opinion.

Contrast that with the F lever, which combines with the A pedal to provide the remaining inversion of the major chord. If you don't have the F lever, you're playing with a very real musical handicap. If you don't have F# to G#, you might not be able to copy the lick du jour exactly as it was played on some hit record. 30 years from now, who will care?

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 21 Jan 2006 11:19 am

I will, I hope

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 Jan 2006 11:26 am

Chris, if you don't tune everything straight up with a meter (equal temper, ET), but instead take your open Es from a meter or piano and tune everything else by ear, you ears will want you to tune the G#, as the 3rd of the open E chord, as much as 16 cents (4 Hz) flat of the meter (called Just Intonation, JI). The C# of the A pedal is the 3rd of the A chord (A and B pedals down), and so your ears will also tune that flat. The lever's F is the 3rd of the C# chord, so it will be tuned flat of the already flat C# and G#. If you play the A pedal/F lever combination together the chord will sound in tune with itself, but must be played a little above the fret to compensate for all those strings and stops being tuned so flat. The main other uses of the F lever are for diminshed (F lever alone) and augmented chords (F lever plus A and B pedals). These are dissonant chords for which the F lever works passably well, in spite of being tuned so flat.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Jan 2006 11:54 am

Paul,

The ensuing clamor that took place after Lloyd's pronounced usage of the E to F change, is an amplification of his mastery of the steel guitar. More information would be welcomed, particularly when referencing which of the two E to F changes were in use that presumingly predated Lloyd's changes. The unwound 4th and wound 8th string picked in unison, or individually should be considered.

Bill

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 21 Jan 2006 12:15 pm

Bill,
Check the dates on the posts.
It's interesting that when I first posted this two years ago, there were only four replies, all basically 'thank yous', no "ensuing clamor".

It was only when Gary brought this to the top, last week that all the discussion began.

I originally asked the question of Lloyd because of comments the late Jeff Newman made to the class (at his final seminar) about the origin of this change. Jeff and I exchanged several emails about this kind of history, only a few days before his untimely death.

BTW, it's great to see you back,Bill.

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 21 January 2006 at 12:18 PM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Jan 2006 12:30 pm

Bill,
If the dated information provided within this thread is accurate, The intro to Loretta's "Don't Come Home A Drinkin" and also Bill Anderson's "3AM" would have happened before Tammy's recordings. Both steel parts utilized the E to F raises on a lever.

None of this information should take away from Drake and Lloyd popularizing the change.

The parts Weldon and Hal played were much more complex and therefor were probably overlooked by some. Both Drake's and Lloyd's licks were so simple that the sound of the raise could be heard. In both Weldon's and Hal's parts the 3 frets up position was utilized with the sound of the E's being raised to pitch without the bending or sliding sound of the Tammy recordings. Their genious for using this lever should also be admired. It appears there were alot of indians circling the camp.

Paul [This message was edited by Franklin on 21 January 2006 at 12:39 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 21 January 2006 at 02:52 PM.]

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 21 Jan 2006 12:30 pm

if you read this thread http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002738.html carl dixon stated that lloyd green added the e-f. buddy emmons posted later and corrected carl on a few other of his statements but didn't refute the lg e-f statement. interesting.

Bruce W Heffner · Post by **Bruce W Heffner** » 22 Jan 2006 5:35 am

I am totally amazed at this forum, as I never stop learning the incredible history of our great instrument.

Bruce

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www.pedalsteel.net

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 22 Jan 2006 6:18 am

Paul,

Is it possible for a steel guitarist to possess a "secret" knee lever change; one that is virtually impossible to ferret out through persistent searching? I believe through hearsay that a famous steel guitarist was successful in not revealing the change. The relevancy of the inquiry springs from afterthoughts transpiring from your words in previous replies.

Bill

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Jan 2006 9:40 am

Bill,
Pedals only change notes into other notes. The answer to your question is no. The only way it could be yes would be to believe that someone at the musical level of a Buddy, Chalker, Jernigan, Julian, Rugg couldn't hear interval changes. If that were the case they could not play Jazz or anything else they were into. Insert your favorite legends and you'll find that they learned to play without any pedal teachers. Their ears developed and taught them what to do. If what you asked was true this could never happen.

Is it possible for someone to play something that will make you think? Yes. But after a players ears are at the level of the professionals discussed within this thread, they can hear which notes are changed and can mathematically figure out what open strings would need to be altered in order to achieve what they hear. Also the reason this and other changes are experimented with around the same time is because in some ways all of these players were at the same musical level of discovery.
And they were All completely unique to the other because what they heard came from inside, not from copying each other. On the E9th they were finding their own path down the same country road.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 22 January 2006 at 10:27 AM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 22 Jan 2006 10:34 am

Gary Spaeth: I didn’t refute Carl Dixon’s statement regarding the E to F change because I wasn’t sure where it came from. One thing for certain though, it was around before Pete’s dream, including thinking about the way Pete wanted to do it. The earliest I remember having the E to F knee lever was on my first Emmons guitar because it had the ability to raise and lower the same string. Anything regarding who had it before that is a blank to me.

Larry Bell: I believe Carl Dixon was a bit misguided regarding my invention of the major triad. I only invented the first and second inversions.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Jan 2006 12:03 pm

Buddy,

Thanks for your input. Billy Clark was the first to tell me about the change after seeing you somewhere in the early 60's and long before the dream. Do you remember him? He was Casey's son.

Paul

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 22 Jan 2006 12:37 pm

Yes I do remember Billy. I’m happy to say I was able to visit with Casey a year or so before he passed away. He was in good spirits and told me his daughter, Evelyn, had settled down somewhere in Tennessee. Casey had a lot to do with the direction of my career and I’ll always remember him and his family for their kindness.[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 22 January 2006 at 12:40 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 22 Jan 2006 5:13 pm

Paul,

It's regretful when I think after taking a long range view, that much of the interesting facts concerning knee levers and floor pedals, may be lost in the shuffle of time. Future steel guitarists may very well move on to new concepts. Who knows who will carry the ball, and preserve the accurate information for posterity?

Bill

Al Brisco · Post by **Al Brisco** » 22 Jan 2006 7:48 pm

All I can add to this, is that my first Sho-Bud 'Finger Tip Tuner' D-10 that I purchased in 1966 came with the E's to F's change on my LKR (which is an awkward place for it), but if I am correct, it is where Lloyd has it to this day.
Al Brisco

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 22 Jan 2006 8:53 pm

Mr. Emmons, Sir. (gulp!) in the thread i referred to earlier you said you had an e-f# on your sho-bud on the third pedal. why couldn't you have pulled the e-f on that guitar as well? [This message was edited by Gary Spaeth on 22 January 2006 at 09:15 PM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 23 Jan 2006 7:44 am

Gary,
I couldn’t have pulled the E to F on that guitar as well because it was a late fifties Sho~Bud permanent model that wouldn’t raise or lower the same string twice. Looking back, I’m sure it could have been done but I don’t recall having it. For that reason the E to F and E to F# double raise originated in the early sixties when the all-pull and push-pull guitars were introduced. My first experience with it was on an Emmons guitar in 1962.
[This message was edited by Buddy Emmons on 23 January 2006 at 07:59 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 23 Jan 2006 8:43 am

Wouldn't a reasonable facsimile of the E to F change be found by raising the 2nd string a full tone, and actuating the A pedal? It would be difficult to rely totally on what is heard since the string gauges (2 and 4) are about the same. I'm aware of the much needed Eb that has become a standard in fast scale patterns. I can't envision a discernable difference in the actual sound though, when played as a triad.

Bill