Relevance of Instructional Materials

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Nov 2005 6:56 pm

SO why is all the E9th material predominantly traditional country!!

Uhh...because that's where the biggest market segment is? (Just guessing.) In a similar vein, I don't hear J-Lo or Britney doing many Hank Sr. songs.

"Modern rock" is more fleeting than snowballs in July. Ten years ago, "modern rock" was Mariah Carey, The Goo-Goo Dolls, and Montell Jordan. I'd imagine that if anyone had a steel course based on those artists, they might sell 6 or 7 copies in a few years.

In this sense, Bobby is corect, you have to learn the instrument, not a bunch of songs. On the other hand, this is not your ordinary instrument. The average student is not going to sit down at a pedal steel and be any good at 6 months. Young people today (and even some old people, too

) have little patience. They want instant results. Caveat: You don't get them here, on this instrument. Learn the basics of the instrument (playing "Mairzy Doats" or "Row-Row-Row Your Boat", if you have to), and then find a good teacher! Take him some of the music you'd like to learn and ask the teacher if he can accomodate you. You'll probably have to go through a few teachers, but sooner or later, you'll find someone who's up to the challenge. Remember, you want to learn, but they'll be learning too. Nobody knows yet what "modern rock steel" is supposed to sound like. (There hasn't been any in the last 20 years.) That may be another good reason you don't see anyone stepping up to the plate and making courses just yet.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 6 Nov 2005 6:57 pm

Having just read this entire thread, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the MAIN REASON WHY all those old-fashioned, dorky songs are in all the instructional books. It's not because they were "cool" back when the books were written: they were already ancient dorky "Americana" standards that no one except elementary school teachers could care less about. No, they're in the books because they are all IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN! Read: NO ROYALTIES need to be paid to include them in your book. The steel guitar market is small enough that most authors do not want to take on the extra financial burden of having to pay up-front royalties for songs to serve as vehicles when just about any song that goes through I-IV-V7 changes will do.

Mike P. makes a great point: that most adults will not mind putting up with whatever the dorky song is long enough to learn the underlying principles, and then start applying it to songs you prefer. Dave Mudgett also makes a great point, that younger folks are often too impatient for this process and want to be learning the ropes on something cooler than "Red River Valley". That's a problem. I wonder whether, if someone did offer a new instruction book with more recent, cooler tunes in it, and had to pay the royalties, that they would sell enough copies to make it worthwhile having done it. Maybe so. Actually, I hope so.

So, here's my question, particularly of the younger players just starting out: what tunes would you want to see included in such a book? Maybe if we can provide a good list, someone will step up to the plate and give it a try. There's nothing wrong with having a new version of "The Bible" issued every 20 years or so!

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Nov 2005 7:15 pm

Jeremy makes some excellent points.

And I have to point out the painfully obvious - most of you guys are showing your age.

I'm 53, and I don't want to play hackneyed old tunes that I feel are irrelevant to where I wish to go with the instrument. Sure - I understand that learning ANY music will help with progress on the instrument, but a book of polkas, German beer drinking songs, Sibelius excerpts and Rap would have just as much relevance. We SERIOUSLY need modernized instruction materials, lest players lose interest.

I got Scotty's book, I'm 40 pages into it and I'm hunting desperately for other stuff. *This* is a "bible" of steel?? Not to mention the pathetic recording quality on the CD - please, folks, if you're going to sell a book/CD for $37 make sure you get some takes where the rhythm guitar player taps his foot or something to keep time. It's embarrassing.

Back to the "age" bit - many of you have mentioned it's valuable to use "familiar" tunes.

Guess what? Unless you're my age, you don't KNOW those tunes. I asked the following people - a mid-30's neighbor couple, my 23 year old son and two of his friends, my 15 year old daughter and one of her friends, and my 11 year old son. NONE of them had ever heard of "Red River Valley, "Goodnight Ladies", Wreck of the ol' 97", Grandfather's clock or anything but Greensleeves, Amazing Grace, "Saints", and my son knew "Rising Sun" only from me laying the old Animals version. Sorry, "Coming round the Mountain" and "Old Smokey" were on the "huh??" list.

Proofs in the pudding folks. The current commercial (I can't speak for Joe Wright's stuff or anything that's not found in music or book stores) releases - both of them - are dusty old tomes that had their day and should be put out to pasture.

The post that said "if you want rock or blues materials, write them" puts the cart before the horse - It's those of use who play those styles and are BEGINNERS who want it - so we can't write it.

You can find a guitar book in every style under the sun. There are mandolin books covering country, bluegrass, swing, jazz and folk. Same with Bass. And drums.

But steel is stuck in 1) a country rut, and 2) teaches it using materials that are horribly out of date.

Again - you can preach to me until you are blue in the face that learning country styles will teach you...eventually...the rock or blues styles you want to play. I will argue forcing a player to play music he/she dislikes will cauuse lost interest in the instrument and eventual implosion. I'm a good example - I gave up once, 10 years ago, victim of the Winston book. I detested the material, it bored me, and I lost all interest.

Now, I'm someone who can at least stomach a little country here and there, especially the Burritos and Poco country/rock stuff. But there are people who are interested in steel who HATE country music.

What can THEY do to learn?

Also realize that many of us...especially older players with families...don't have time for lessons. We have to grab tab and CD's and try to work in practice when we can.

I KNOW there must be competent player/teachers out there who can develop and publish updated materials. IMO they would tap a huge new market. With the Carter Starter out there, it's no longer a $3,000 investment to get started on steel.

All updated material would do is grow the market and the instrument's exposure. And that hopefully is a good thing.

I know there are some who strongly feel that steel is country and any other application (or playing of the instrument by rock musicians) is heresy, i.e. the Garcia and Randolph debates, which are the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

Oh - and whoever writes the new stuff, make it available by Paypal.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 06 November 2005 at 07:18 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Nov 2005 8:08 pm

I teach at a university. Students pay thousands of dollars for tuition, and for that, we need to come up with something interesting that motivates them to learn. It's a full-time occupation for thousands of teachers. Students are clients, or if you will, apprentices, in a very real sense. So it's not hard to understand why we go to this effort.

Now let's look at the steel guitar world. Unless you're ready to drop some serious dough, why should anybody make special motivational lessons for you? I think this is basically Jim Cohen's point. It's a small market - I expect it's tough to amortize the cost of making serious instructional materials over "dozens" of students. They need hundreds or thousands, I would think.

There are some who teach in an updated style. But unless we support them by buying their lessons new and putting money into their pockets, why should they do it? I think this was part of Mike Perlowin's earlier post.

So, we can complain until we're blue in the face about old lessons with old, outdated tunes, but unless there's a real economic incentive for a lot of people to make new pedagogy, why should we expect big changes?

That leads me to the last point. Let's say we're talking about mature adults here. As Lee Iacocca said - "If you can get a better car, buy it!". But if you can't, you really have two choices. One - suck it up and find the best resources you can and work through them to figure out the things you need. Or two - just bail out. I'm not suggesting anybody bail out, but do you at least see my logic? It's up to the learner to learn. Everything else is just excuses. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is my experience from years and years of being a student and a teacher.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Nov 2005 8:10 pm

Jim makes some good points. I have some of the same issues, but with learning to properly play keyboards. I love classical music, but I don't want to learn to play it. I talked with 3 teachers and they will not jump into rock and country (actually one just laughed) unless I start out at the beginning of their course and progress. It would be at least a year or two before getting out of the classical stage. I would quit before that. Lots of books available. The rock and country style books assume you are an accomplished piano player already. Beginning books start with the classical stuff. I just want a teacher to show me the right techniques. I can definitely see the frustrations for beginning steel players who aren't interested in country.

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Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Nov 2005 8:38 pm

Dave, I think my point is there *are* hundreds...or thousands...of potential students out there. But any rock or blues guitar player who is thinking of buying a Carter Starter because of the price and giving it a try is goinfg to pick up one of the books available, laugh, and forget the whole thing.

No, a book starting someone out with Van Halen's "Eruption" is silly, but it wouldn't be out of line to use Chuck Berry. Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Beach Boys, Neil Young, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Yes, Eagles, some classic blues riffs....yes, I'm aware of publishing rights, but it's not that tough a hurdle. You just use the stuff you're able to publish.

I really think it's a completely untapped market. We're I qualified to write the stuff, I'd work on it myself, see if Carter or another maker was interested in a cooperative distribution agreement, and let 'er rip.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 6 Nov 2005 9:36 pm

Get a teacher if you can. In case you're interested, Jim, there is an excellent teacher in San Pedro named John McClung (John, I hope you don't mind). He's on the forum in case you want to contact him. I took some lesson with John when I first got my steel, and I should probably take some more now that I've been playing for awhile. A teacher will show you good technique and he/she is sitting right next to you. John was using his own teaching materials, and he also had me using Scotty's E9 Anthology with all those old-timey royalty-free ditties. I was looking at that book this morning after reading these threads, and regardless of the particular song titles that are in there, there are a lot of universal exercises, 50's rock stuff, Sears intro/outro stuff, swing riffs, etc., to at least give a student an inkling of how to play in this different styles. Having a teacher to work with in addition to that or any other book makes a big big difference in how you sound, at least in terms of clarity and execution. I don't mind playing "Red River Valley" the way Scotty has it tabbed-out as an exercise because now I know how to use a half-release of my A pedal to get a m7 chord, and this comes in useful when playing with my band that plays all original rock-and-roll (no tabs available for what we play). There is a CD that comes with Scotty's book, as there is with most instructional material, so I don't need to be familiar with those old tunes from kindegarten to do the exercises.
In addition to studying the steel guitar I have also been studying the saxophone, and it's interesting to note the different approaches in study material between these two instruments. The biggest difference is that all saxophone instructional texts assume that the student reads music, and all material is written out in musical notation. The instructional texts rarely have any songs in them, they are mostly a series of exercises for technique. For songs, one gets a song book, like the Real Book, or any artist's book. It seems to be the norm with the sax materials that I've seen to have instructional books with exercise material, and song books with performance material. By using the instructional books one will develop enough proficiency to be able to pick-up any song book that suits the player, regardless of style. Perhaps this is the case because you need to read standard music notation to play the sax, and once you can do that and you have developed skills and technique you can use any song book you want. Is the common practice of using tab instead of music notation creating a handicap for students? Would it better to force students to read music for the steel guitar? That would certainly free a steel guitar player to access all of the song books that are published in music notation. Just a thought. One day I will put the effort into reading music for pedal steel guitar....how hard can that be?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Nov 2005 9:43 pm

Jim, I hope you're right, but I'm not sure there's enough demand to create a major change in pedagogy. It would be good for the instrument if this happens. I don't see anybody arguing with that. But the big question is, what to do until that happens? It must be possible to suspend disbelief long enough to get something from the resources that are out there now.

I'm also not up on steel enough yet to write this kind of thing, and anyway, I have a math book to write before I could do anything else. But I mix a lot of rock and blues into my steel playing every gig. I'm guessing that Joe Wright and Paul Franklin have instructional materials with a good handle on this. I probably should pony up and get some of these.

One useful video I do have is the Sacred Steel video by Chuck Campbell on Homespun. One can execute a lot of his ideas on a slightly modified E9 or standard universal setup, I think. He does some very cool, non-country stuff. But even the Sacred Steel style doesn't entirely eschew the more major tonalities. I think everything, including the standard country stuff, fits nicely in rock and blues styles.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Nov 2005 10:02 pm

Cliff - as I stated earlier, many of uss with families and actual jobs don't have the hours to spare to get to a teacher and take lessons - we have to grab practice time whenever we can (plus the expense is nothing to sneeze at). I talked to teachers early on a few months ago, when I had my MSA, annd they were all real interested. When I settled on the Fender setup they stopped answering emails.

Dave, as far as mixing ideas from Saced Steel players, that's something I would think is for a player with some basic knowledge...not a beginner. I don't know much about sacred steel except that they use different tunings altogether, and I have enough trouble finding anyone who will tell me how to work with my tuning without trying tto learn some other thing altogether. The only reason I traded for the 1000 was so that I could use some conventional learning materials - it's still got that "country" sound built in to the tuning, which isn't my bag, but nobody makes a B6 lesson series...

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Nov 2005 1:20 am

The Sacred steel thing is no mystery and needs no particular tuning. It can be played with no problems (except the low string stumming) on a standard E9 or C6. Its the same notes we all use only the phrasing is different. I've got a few new students that I am starting off with basic blues rather than country. The main difference is I have the guys not interested in country mash away on the A and B pedals at the 8th fret instead of the 5th fret if we are in the key of D.

What I did when I was first feeling like the standard tab stuff was a drag was to dig into the Jamey Abersold stuff and figure out where the notes are on the neck. That way I could access all sorts of learning material. Also the Joe Wright excel spreadsheet program for mapping scales has been a major help for me.

The more I teach the less I like tab. Its good for some stuff I guess but I'm feeling more and more that there is something basicly crippling about it. The students that use there ears and minds and then get there hands together to do what there ears tell them make such better progress.

Bob

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 7 Nov 2005 1:40 am

I like country steel, and I enjoy the Anthology. Like I already said, there's sooo much in that book to learn. You can apply it to your own style once you learn the licks. Get down "Mississippi Waltz" and get back to me. It might look simple, but it's deceiving, just like a lot of licks in that book.

I took up pedal steel to play country music, and I believe it's best suited to that genre. I have no interest in trying to do anything radical with an instrument that has such a warm, cozy home in country. when I want to rock out, I pick up the electric 6-string.

Pedal steel shines in all its glory when it whines through a great country song.

Brendan Dunn · Post by **Brendan Dunn** » 7 Nov 2005 2:48 am

I'm a beginner at steel guitar, I think the old tunes in those old books work just fine for examples of the basic principles. It's probably a lot more than guys like Mooney, Brumley and Sneaky Pete.... or any one else from a generation or two ago had to start with.

Sometimes it's easy to overlook the value of 'dated' things....until they become rare valuable, vintage antiques .... or just disappear altogether and become lost to the world.

Different people have different needs. I'm not looking to play like anyone else in particular, just to increase my knowlege of the insrtument and music in general....so i'm easy to please on that account.

A good teacher helps alot, I agree with Cliff that John McClung is excellent.

I think the uilleann pipes might be tougher to learn than the pedal steel .... mainly because they don't have any resource nearly so cool as this forum for information about the instrument. [This message was edited by Brendan Dunn on 07 November 2005 at 04:22 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 7 Nov 2005 3:17 am

Bob Hoffnar used the word "crippling" and "tab" in the same paragraph, whew. Tab is like learning fingerpainting, reading music is like learning to read and write.* The goal is still speaking, but, whew. YES Hendrix played by ear, YES so-and-so couldn't read a note, if you're that gifted you don't need any help anyway. The best learning resource I've found so far:
The Classical Music Fake Book, 2nd Edition
ISBN: 0793513294

Most people would have as much or more fun with those scanned jazz & standard fakebooks, forumite Mike Ihde sells a CD with 12 books on it, you can find him in "Links" -> "Steel Vendors and Instructional Material." Also, somebody (?) posted them online here not long ago too.

*(Ever wonder what a symphony orchestra would sound like if all the parts were written in tab? Whew.

)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 7 Nov 2005 5:37 am

Tab has been used for decades with guitar music as well as steel, incidentally. I have Hawaiian guitar tab, in published form, from the 1930's.

No tab system is perfect that I've seen, but it has a purpose: it tells the player exactly where the notes he's seeking in a recorded arrangement are located, quickly.

For the piano, saxophone, and most wind instruments I know of, there's only one place to find a particular note. So a note shown in standard notation has only one place on the instrument where it can be found. Easy.

The steel is a different bird. There can be six, seven, eight, nine, etc. different places where a particular note can be found. Each place has different opportunities for the following notes, and each place has different ease of execution places based on the notes that came before it. Tab eliminates the time and confusion spent in searches.

Tab is designed for "ear" musicians to get up and running on songs without the necessary discipline of reading standard notation, which does offer more information about timing, inflection, etc. Tab is meant to accompany and elucidate a recorded example, not to be the sole source of instruction as is standard notation.

I can read standard notation and do so when I want to work up an arrangement for a tune I've never played before. But I learned to read notation on my own time, and I'm not a hot-shot orchestral-type reader. My students want to play steel guitar in country bands, not in orchestras, and they want to do it in a matter of months, not years.

IMHO, tab doesn't replace standard notation. It's a different thing, though it does duplicate some of the functions of notation. Tab, when accompanied by standard notation, is very functional; it only loses some of its functionality when it stands alone. Like I said, it's meant to be used with another source, either written or recorded.

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Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Nov 2005 6:14 am

FWIW tablature predates written music notation. It was developed for each particular instrument centuries ago. Written "music" came along as a standard much later.

The fakebooks mentioned - are those steel fakebooks in tab or notation fakebooks? I can't read music and am another slave to tab and ear.....

Brendan - again, those "old tunes" are (I assume) meant to be familiar to the player, but are not anymore and have lost their relevancy.

Additionally, read my earlier post about inclusion of rock/blues basics - that would go a long way in filling a huge hole AND be familiar at the same time.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 03:29 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 7 Nov 2005 6:18 am

Jim, I with Bob H. on the idea that there's no special mystery about sacred steel and blues on steel. If one simply adds the F# => E or F# => G# change on string 7, even rhythmic strumming, or "framming" as they call it, is within reach on the standard E9 neck. It's also good to put the F# => G changes to give additional dominant 7th chords, there are others. Although SS is not exactly blues, it is very closely related, and the techniques work well on blues tunes, which go to the pentatonics needed for rock and roll.

Also, if you play slide guitar, the usual slide "box" patterns can be found in many places on the steel. You can treat the pedal/lever mashing as changing the fixed tuning and work within each set of box patterns.

I sometimes use the Shubb-Pearce dobro-style bar for this kind of stuff, which allows me to lift the bar. Perhaps it's a good idea to not do this at first - to force development of right-hand "blocking" skills - but many SS and bluesy players like Chuck and RR use that type of bar and also block by lifting the bar. One can glean a lot of information just watching Chuck on that video if you know the basic things.

I think there is quite a bit of useful info out there, but not if one takes a passive approach like so much elementary guitar instructional material takes. I think it's necessary to take the bull by the horns to learn an instrument like this, especially if you want to do anything but the standard stuff. Believe me, I haven't been at it that long, and I have to really work at it. I wish I had a year or two to do nothing else, but, alas, I also need to make a living.

I think Herb's right on about the tab vs. reading thing. I view it as a way to communicate with players who play mostly by ear and don't read conventionally. It only becomes a crutch if someone uses it to replace really hearing what they're doing. I hear many players of all instruments play mechanically from music or tab - one needs to go past this, IMO. It's important to get the ear together quickly, especially on the steel. The most important and maybe hardest thing to be able to do is to play the durned thing in tune. It doesn't matter whether it's "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" or "Purple Haze".

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 7 Nov 2005 6:31 am

I made some discoveries about fretboard positions with partial chords that were right in front of me, but I didn't see them before

And every one of 'em makes you want to grin.
Perhaps the some of the classic "teaching materials" of today could be considered somewhat "long in tooth", but, they are still relevant. I play steel 'cause I like the sound. There are certain, particular, unique "phrases" that I have heard over the years, (from all of the great ones) that I want learn to be able to play myself, because when I hear them, they touch my psyche like nothing else and like no other musical instrument. The only way I'm gonna find them is thru the "ancient teachings".

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 7 Nov 2005 7:03 am

I rant:
http://www,johnmcgann.com/tab.html

The late, great Winnie Winston and our Forum's Larry Bell offer some steel oriented opinions here, too.

Of course there is a very good argument for tab on pedal steel, where the same pitch can occur on four different frets on the same string, depending on teh raises and lowers- and that SAME pitch can be found on most of the other strings!

Tab is the mechanical positioning, and knowing that is 100% useful. It's just that when you learn what the notes are, and what the notes in the chords used are, and how they relate, and can HEAR it all, you have much more ammo in your belt. IMHO YMMV etc.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 November 2005 at 07:04 AM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 07 November 2005 at 07:06 AM.]

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 7 Nov 2005 10:09 am

Very nice thread, b0b, this is the kind of stuff I miss seeing on the forum...

Looking over the reponses, there seem to be representatives of several camps here, ie;

The currently available steel texts and courses, although containing very dated or "old-timey" songs, are still very useful for understanding the instrument in the pursuit of any style.
The same texts and courses, by the nature of the tune choices, are hopelessly outdated and turn off the very students they intend to serve.
One should learn standard notation and use that as a study medium, with more access to musical forms not strictly country.
One should learn "by ear" and by working things out on the guitar itself.

And then subsets of "tab is a crutch" and "learn from other instruments/stylists" or "learn only from other classic steel players" fall into several of these categories.

Some very different mindsets, obviously not all well served by the same methodology.

One of the things that bears so strongly on the "tune" end, as Jim C mentioned, is the cost of mechanical licensing for any "new" copywritten material, I really think many here are just plain unaware of how expensive that is in the relatively small run of material we're talking about. And then the choice of just which new material would be acceptable- suggestions of Chuck Berry and Rolling Stones tunes would probably be judged just as archaic as "Red River Valley" by many young newbies.

These are very serious questions, as the mechanical aspects of our instrument make it possibly even more important to have stimulating instructional material that deals with the functioning of the pedal steel, in the world of "modern" music. Whatever that is...

In my case, I had heard most or all of those old chestnuts at campfire singalongs while a kid, or on old movies, or in school... I guess that doesn't happen any more. But even the songs I didn't recognize, and the ones I didn't "like", from the Winston and Scotty books show pedal and knee movement, scale useage, harmonies, tuning and phrasing ideas. It's hard for me to grasp that one can be so turned off by the tunes themselves as to ignore all of the other content... it does take some digging, and perhaps part of the appeal for some is in "learning how to teach one's self".

That being said, there do seem to be some "tab literalists" among us, who only wish to learn songs they would perform in public. I often notice requests in the Tab Forum for very simple tunes which should be reasonably easy to figure out, and wonder if the requests are coming from those new to the instrument, or those who have trained themselves to "need" tab arrangements to perform.

It's obvious that there's a real lack of material to appeal to the rocker/bluesman/modernist/E9 jazzer/... It may be pushing it a bit to say those are an easy leap from "standard old-timey" instruction. I will say, that for those who desire to play alt-country, folk, "no depression", or what I call singer-songwriter music, most everything you need is already in the Winston, Scotty and Newman courses.

In terms of integrating with the classical world, jingle work, and some other layers of professional studio and theatre work, tab might be an anachronism, but as with the large percentage of 6 sting guitarists, reading is not a necessary requirement for professional stature. I think the issue here is more about immediate access (and gratification) to stimulating music for students of any ability. (I'm certainly appreciative of Tommy White's fine tab of his own and John Hughey's albums, which frankly give some true insight into real evolved genius that standard notation just wouldn't accomplish).

There are obviously folks who are desperate for quality study materials that will stimulate and inspire them. I'm currently working on a book trying to integrate theory in an accesible manner with the layout of the E9 tuning, and also trying to make it useful to both novice and experienced players who want to know the instrument better. For all of the reasons here it's a monumental task- how to make theory interesting, and not seem like piles of numbers to the beginner, while exploring the wonderful depths possible for the more experienced... the very nature of the "tune" debate we're seeing here seems to preclude using any "song" examples, for fear of alienating some faction or other of the intended market.

All comments and suggestions solicited and apprectiated. Please tag me back via Email with anything helpful!

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Jim Hankins · Post by **Jim Hankins** » 7 Nov 2005 10:51 am

I believe Dewitt Scott`s Deluxe Pedal Steel Guitar course is brilliantly concieved, especially for the beginning player. The CD is not that bad!! Do kids not even really know Shell be comin round the mountain, etc?Thats too bad.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 7 Nov 2005 11:37 am

Do kids not even really know She'll be comin round the mountain...

I can't believe they don't know it. Childrens culture hasn't changed in centuries. The kids game of ball and jacks goes back the the stone age, when they used small bones.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Nov 2005 12:27 pm

It's easy for someone who has never tried to sell anything in this market to complain about what's available. Blah blah. I know from experience that the things that sell are 1)E9th country, 2)E9th theory, 3)C6 lap steel, and 4)western swing - in that order.

Everything else languishes on the shelf. I had 4 copies of Joe Wright's rock video courses in stock and it took me two years to sell them. Publishers gravitate towards what actually sells, not what someone in an internet chat room thinks will sell.

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Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Nov 2005 12:38 pm

Ah, but in fairness, b0b, we should consider the possibility that the Forum membership is strongly country-skewed, and that other channels of distribution might do much better with rock instruction than you have. Yes?

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 7 Nov 2005 12:42 pm

Apropos of Jim Cohen’s comment about the use of copyrighted material, I just remembered that I originally used “Ruby Tuesday” and a few Beatle tunes in my music theory book, and the folks at Mel Bay made me delete them and substitute tunes that were in the public domain.

Something else to think about. What is contemporary today will still be dated tomorrow. Assuming that one could use some of the material by such artists as Hendrix or the Allman brothers or Michael Jackson for instructional purposes, today’s teens and 20somthings still couldn’t relate.

I bet EVERYBODY you ask, regardless of age, knows Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and Yankee Doodle Dandy. And even though none of us would want to play those tunes, the fact that everybody knows them makes them suitable teaching material.

I think Jim Sliff’s problem with the material that’s available is not the age of the tunes, but the fact that there is a very real cultural gap between the people who grew up listening to Ray Price and the people who spent their formative years listening to Led Zeppelin. Jim is clearly on one side, while the majority of people on this forum are on the other.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 7 Nov 2005 2:07 pm

Mike, I was in grade school for Ray Price, and high school for Jimmy Page. I think it's the Whitesnake, Rush, U2, Def Leppard generation (and afterward) that wasn't given exposure.

BTW, you remember George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words? I believe one of them is in Elton John's tune "Honky Cat" from like 1973.