Confessions Of A Former ET Tuner

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Jul 2005 2:07 pm

Oh and Pete. If you tune everything within 7 cents of ET, you are not tuning JI and have beats all over the place. SO what do you do count 3-6 beats per second for your thirds?

Check out the Jeff Newmann chart and get back to me.

Or after the gig tonight I'll go copy it again for the tenth time.

EJL

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 4 Jul 2005 2:34 pm

so, what you all are saying is that no matter what we do and how we tune we will never be in tune 100%...oh,in my next life I`ll play spoons

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~
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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Jul 2005 3:17 pm

As great a Jerry Byrd may have been, I hear lots of intonation problems in his playing. I hear LOTS of questionable intonation on many old recordings; is it just me?

Well, to be totally frank, I've heard some too, but only when bar slants were used. I expect it there because, it's so difficult to be "angularly perfect", and let's face it, guitars were rather crude back then compared to today's crop of precision instruments. But, I've got a ton of early stuff by the likes of Buddy E., Buddy C., Weldon, Pete, Hal, Curly, Lloyd, Day, Crawford, Walter, as well as others of the non-pedal world like Siebert, McCauliffe, Helms, Boggs, Joaquin, Stubbs, Wiggens, and Byrd.

If any of these guys ever played "out", it wasn't enough to bother me. And, if everyone today was so much better (or any better, for that matter), we wouldn't even be having these silly little discussions, would we?

Clearly, the fact we're debating this issue shows we're having a problem, or noticing that problem in others or in our own playing. My playing's not perfect, either. Only last week, I did a session, and before I even listened to the playback on one song, I knew I was "out" on a particular passage. We went over the playback, and both the engineer and vocalist said..."Sounds okay to me." My retort was something like "My GOD! Erase that before anyone else hears it...please!" I recut the track, and all was well. It wasn't how I was tuned, but how I was playing that caused the problem.

I suspect that's true for a lot of us.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Jul 2005 6:28 pm

Of course it's true and it's true of any fretless stringed instrument.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 4 Jul 2005 7:58 pm

Since I lowered the 3rds only by about 8 cents, that's not truly JI. I told Eric I left his team, but I'm not sure who's team I'm on, now. Most of my 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths are pretty much "straight up". Just the 3rds are lowered a bit.

It sure felt like it was easier to play in tune with the rest of the band.

Does anyone actually tune all their notes to JI? If so, maybe there are three teams-ET tuners, JI tuners, and everybody else.

Lee

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Jul 2005 8:19 pm

Actually I bet your sixths aren't, since the sixth of E (C#) is also the third of A. If you compensate your F#, with pedals down, the sixth of A (F#) is also lowered / tempered slightly flat of ET.

I think there are a lot of us who tune to tuners -- basically because many jobs don't allow you to tune up out loud. And there are a lot of us who realize that ET is the best choice for multiple tonal combinations but ET thirds make the hair on the back of our necks stand up.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 4 Jul 2005 8:45 pm

You're right, Larry. Those pesky F#'s are a problem. I tuned the F#'s to about 440 (pedals up). I don't have any compensators on the F#'s. With the small amount of "cabinet drop" on my Mullen, the F#'s blended fairly well with both the B's and the C#'s.

All in all, I found it easier to play in tune with this form of "tampered" tuning. That's the important thing.

Lee

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 4 Jul 2005 9:33 pm

Well I realise the good naturedness of the original post.

If it's any consolation to anybody I too wish the Twelve Tone System was a little more flexible and maybe had just fifty or so more notes in it.

I gotta admit I've read the grandaddy of all efforts to make C C#.

Thanks all.

I don't have a team, but I guarantee I've had more than a half dozen emails thanking me for helping make sense of the "Tremendous Tunin' Question". Two from beginners that were otherwise by all the fancy out of tune systems.

A couple more thanking me for daring to let people know what I think of some of the lame crap that goes among with it. Some people have to bear with things they don't abide because of where they are and whose ass the must kiss. I don't envy them.

LOTS of intelligent discussion, for the most part.

And even some real wit, even if sometimes multiplied by .5 ...

Nite.

Happy Fourth.

EJL

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 4 Jul 2005 10:14 pm

Eric, all of your alleged problems for JI remain hypothetical until you give us a specific example of a grip, inversion, whatever, in which the JI intervals of one chord do not work for another chord using the same strings.

Marty, I am sorry John Macy couldn't explain your question about how "tampered" tuning of thirds works. I will right here. If you tune your open E chord strings on E9 with the 3rds (G# on the 3rd and 6th strings) tuned to about 437 instead of 440, you will have a JI tuned E chord with "tampered" 3rds (that is, JI 3rds that are flat of ET). Now if you mash the A and B pedal to change that to an A chord, the 3rd and 6th strings become the tonics of that chord. But they do not have to be flat. You can easily tune those B pedal stops to 440. So the "tampered" 3rds of the E chord do not at all intefere with a well tuned A chord. Likewise, the thirds of the A chord are on strings 5 and 10. You can tune those "tampered" flat for a good JI sounding A chord by tuning the stops on the A pedal to about 437. That will not in any way interfere with the E chord on the open strings when you let up on the A and B pedals, because all those open strings are tuned at the keyhead independently of the A and B pedal stops. In short you can tune both chords with "tampered" 3rds, and in neither case does it interfere with the other chord. All inversions of both chords can be played with good JI intervals.

I repeat. Would you and Eric please give us one specific example of two chords, grips, inversions, or whatever that cannot be tuned and played with proper JI thirds and fifths in both chords? There are some of course. But if you take the time to start hunting around for them, you may find they are such obscure and uncommonly used grips that it is not worth putting all of your commonly used chords out of tune, just so you can use these esoteric grips. Also, you may find that even those few strange grips are not as out of tune as all of your common chords are when you tune everything straight up ET.

I'm really not trying to be dogmatic here. I have investigated this a little bit, and I just cannot find the inversions that Eric and Marty are so worried about having to do without. If some one will show them to me, maybe I will discover these are things I suddenly need, and I will have to reconsider the whole JI/ET thing. Right now, the worst offender I can find is the AF combination. As I have said before, it is far easier for me to play slightly sharp of the fret and get all of the intervals of the chord right than it is for me to tune ET and play right over the fret, and make my bar bend at the 3rds to give me the sweet sounding intervals.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 4 Jul 2005 11:15 pm

Thanks David

. I couldn't explain it cause I have always done what works for me. I was already headed for an engineering career in the studio before I started playing steel, and actually played in the studio (and wrestled with the tuning issue) before I ever played on a stage.

In 30+ years in the studio, I feel I have developed my ear to know what's in tune as well as anybody. I have been listening to myself back off tape since the beginning, and ended up using JI before tuners were standard, and the subject was even discussed. It's the same now as it was back then for me--if the piano plays, say an E chord that is sweet and in tune, and the guitar player plays his E chord that sounds in tune, and I play a ET E chord that sounds out of tune, how does that work? It doesn't in my world and never will. If you can make it work in yours, that's great--all I care about at the end of the day is whether or not the record is in tune... You can talk theory and math all day, but the bottom line is what works on the playback (and that window is getting more and more narrow).

(By the way, I never shy away from any inversions or grips. The only problems I had were with the F#'s, which Jimmie Crawford showed me how to fix with compensators in 1979.)

I would truly hate to be a beginner reading all this stuff and trying to decide what to do. All I can say is try and record yourself with some in tune musicians and figure it out yourself. While "idol worship" won't get you anywhere, it doesn't hurt to know that the studio pros you hear daily playing in tune on the radio are all tuning JI, and they seemed to get called back...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Jul 2005 4:56 am

Mr Doggett, I already did some 20,776 words ago.

I tune straight up so that all my changes are useable.

It's simple and it works for me.

My ears have come to expect it.

So shoot me.

EJL

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Jul 2005 5:08 am

I guess I better confess; I've never really tried JI for any length of time and just assumed that the beats were a result of string age (and I mean days/weeks not months).

It seems, HYPOTHETICALLY, that if you use the Eb lever major chord inversion that the F# strings (now being the 6ths) would be impossibly flat; and that the Gb strings if tuned flat would also be VERY flat in that same inversion.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 5 Jul 2005 6:50 am

I would truly hate to be a beginner reading all this stuff and trying to decide what to do. All I can say is try and record yourself with some in tune musicians and figure it out yourself. While "idol worship" won't get you anywhere, it doesn't hurt to know that the studio pros you hear daily playing in tune on the radio are all tuning JI, and they seemed to get called back...

Thanks John. It bothers me also when I think how beginners might be mislead by some of these threads. Just remember guys, this is an internet chat room. Take it for what it is worth.

Learning how to trust your ears and make the steel sound good are the true secret to making a living playing.

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Bob
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 July 2005 at 07:51 AM.]

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 5 Jul 2005 7:10 am

The best and only thing a newbee should do is tune by ear and put down the crutch.

Get an E tuning fork and a C tuning fork and spend some quality time in a quiet room discovering for yourself what in tune means.

Every dollar I spent on fancy tuners has been a total waste of money. You're paying to not practice.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jul 2005 8:04 am

Thank you, Marty, that is a very interesting question. On E9, when you lower the E strings (4 and

, you create a B6 tuning. The roots are on strings 5 and 10 and these are B tuned to 440 as the 5ths of the open E chord (I'm ignoring cabinet drop for this example). The 3rds of the B6 chord are the lowered E strings. The E lower knee lever stops can be tuned to 437 (12 cents flat of ET) for a sweet JI major chord (I tune these stops by ear, unless I can't hear and have to use a meter). The 5ths are F# on strings 1 and 7, and these are 440. I tune my F#s to 440 by ear as the 5ths of the B chord with roots on strings 5 and 10 in the open E9 tuning. The G# on strings 3 and 6 now form the 6ths of the B6 chord. They were tuned to 437 as the 3rds of the open E chord. Well, guess what? It turns out that the 6th of a JI scale and chord is supposed to be 436 (16 cents flat of ET). So this is within 4 cents of where it is supposed to be. Any difference less than 5 cents of the true pitch is generally considered undetectable to most listeners. So there you have it. The new B6 chord created by lowering the Es comes out 1, 3, 5, 6 as 440, 437, 440, 437 (in cents: 0, -12, 0, -12), almost perfect JI.

It gets better. With the Es lowered you also get a G# minor chord, the relative minor of B. A JI minor 3rd should be 444 (16 cents sharp of ET). The G# roots are 437 (tuned as the 3rds of the E open chord). The minor 3rd is B on strings 5 and 10. These were tuned to 440 as the 5ths of the open E chord. The 5ths are D# on strings 4 and 8. These were tuned to 437 on the E lower lever. So the minor chord comes out 1, 3, 5 as 437, 440, 437. In cents this is -12, 0, -12. The whole chord is 12 cents flat if the bar is directly over the fret. Any competent player's ears will have the bar slightly sharp of the fret, in which case the minor chord will be 440, 443, 440 (in cents 0, +12, 0). Again this is within 4 cents of a true JI minor chord (0, +16, 0).

Incidently, the exact problem Marty asked about is the reason that the E9/B6 universal does not have serious conflicts between tuning both the E9 and B6 modes JI. The B6 chord is the V chord of the E9 scale. Since both modes come from the same JI scale there are no serious conflicts.

Marty's example perfectly illustrates the principle at stake here. Tuning everything straight up ET at 440 allows you to play directly over the fret, but you will have dissonant sounding major and minor chords that are 440, 440, 440 (0, 0, 0) rather than the 440, 437, 440 (0, -12, 0) and 440, 444, 440 (0, +16, 0) one expects for JI. If you tune JI (which is typically done by ear, not necessarily with a meter), you can have the sweet sounding JI intervals, but you will not end up playing directly over the fret for every chord. The frets are just guidelines, and the chords and notes are played by ear. This is b0b's important point.

I know it is a bit complicated to analyze what happens like this. But in practice one never thinks out all this. You just tune your open strings by ear to what sounds good for the open E chord (strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10) and open B chord (strings 1, 2, 5, 7), and you tune your pedal and knee stops by ear to sound good with the open strings in the chords those stops are used for. This is what all pedal steelers did for decades until inexpensive handheld chromatic tuners became available. It worked then and it still works now.

It is amazing how much stuff works out right in tuning JI. This is not entirely by coincidence. With a JI scale, all the common chords (I, IV, V, VIm) have the proper JI intervals, with no conflicts. It is only chords like the II and VI that do not have the proper intervals. Usually on steel we would get those chords simply by moving the bar up a whole step from I or V, and that would preserve the proper JI intervals. This is an advantage we have over keyboards and harps. Also, on pedal steel, when we use a different string for the root, and therefore, change which strings have the 3rds, we usually use pedals or knee levers that allow us to tune the critical strings on stops independent of how the string is tuned at the keyhead. This buys us additional advantages over keyboards and harps. That is why for a lot of standard chords we do not necessarily have to use ET, but can use our own tuning system that can be much closer to JI for many chords. A pedal steel guitar is not a piano or harp, and does not always have to be tuned by the compromised ET system that was invented for pianos and harps. The fretless strings and horns are free to play JI, and so are we. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 05 July 2005 at 09:34 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jul 2005 8:12 am

Eric, my brother, I'm not letting you off the hook so easily. I have read most of your comments in these JI/ET threads. It usually consists of a bunch of gonzo generalities and hypotheticals despairing the ability to tune JI without causing conflicts between certain unspecified strings, grips, intervals, chords, scales etc. Get specific for once, the way Marty did. If you have done so in the past, quote yourself or point us to the appropriate posting. I have learned a heck of a lot by having to think through things you have said. But that's not happening here, and can't unless you get specific. There is no doubt in my mind that there are some grips that will not work out as neatly as the above example from Marty. I just haven't found them yet.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Jul 2005 9:30 am

Marty wrote:

It seems, HYPOTHETICALLY, that if you use the Eb lever major chord inversion that the F# strings (now being the 6ths) would be impossibly flat; and that the Gb strings if tuned flat would also be VERY flat in that same inversion.

Most people tune the F# strings harmonically to the B strings, and lower them a smidge with a compensator pull on the the first or second pedal.

The G# to B interval is tuned wide in JI, and it makes no difference if the interval is 3rd to 5th of an E chord or 6th to root of a B. It's in tune in both positions.

To be honest, I don't know where all of these so-called out-of-tune positions are on the standard E9th. The only out-of-tune interval I'm aware of on my guitar is the D-to-G on the top 2 strings. Do you use that one a lot? I've never seen it on any tab.

It's easier to understand JI if you think of it as tuning intervals instead of notes. The laws of nature dictate how a major third interval will sound in tune. Our ears have been conditioned by Western tradition to accept major thirds that are wider than natural and minor thirds that are narrower than natural. In fact, any major third interval between 386 cents (JI) and 400 cents (ET) will sound in tune.

This is why "tampered" thirds, meantone, JI and ET all have advocates here who insist that they are not playing out of tune. They are all correct!

If you allow that an ET third is not out of tune, then the only way to disallow JI and other intervals that fall between JI and ET is to totally reject natural harmonies. As a religious man, I can't do that. The harmonic sequence embedded in the physical properties of every string, reed and tube can only be denied by those who value man's math over God's substance.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 5 Jul 2005 9:56 am

If a hypothetical omnipotent Supernatural Being had intended for us to tune pairs of strings with their fundamental frequencies in low-integer ratios, then She would have made strings without inharmonicity.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Jul 2005 9:57 am

ALRIGHT!!!
I'M GONNA TRY IT (maybe) FOR WEDNESDAY NITES' OPEN MIC hosted by my lovely wife and myself.

If the other musicians laugh at me and point their fingers and make me cry, you're ALL IN BIG TROUBLE!!!

Learning how to trust your ears and make the steel sound good are the true secret to making a living playing.

Yes, and I've been tuning straight up forever and I THINK I sound in tune! I just don't get it...

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 5 Jul 2005 10:18 am

The Way you tune; and how Well you play in tune, is a direct relation in how Well your Ear is trained by you.
Ricky

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Jul 2005 10:28 am

As a 40-year guitarist and rookie steel player...

...what the heck do "ET and "JI" stand for?

Man, I used to think maple vs rosewood could get heated...

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Jul 2005 10:30 am

If the other musicians laugh at me and point their fingers and make me cry, you're ALL IN BIG TROUBLE!!!

Wait a minute, you're the b@n/0 player, right? Aren't you used to that by now.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 5 Jul 2005 10:37 am

b0b-

Jim, it's about whether you tune 'in tune' therefore sounding OUT OF TUNE or whether you tune 'out of tune' so you can sound IN TUNE. Get it?

Oh and maple, no question...

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 5 Jul 2005 11:09 am

I am old and my mental capacity is rapidly diminishing, but I am still unable to grasp the concept of deliberately "tuning out of tune", to facilitate the guitar being "in tune"!

Shouldn't the mechanical design inadequacies of the guitar that requires this tuning anomaly be solved first?

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www.genejones.com
The Road Traveled "From Then 'til Now"

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jul 2005 11:17 am

Jim, JI stands for Just Intonation, and ET stands for Equal Temperment or Equal Temper. If you do a web search you will find tons of information on these different tuning systems. Also you can search the Forum and find many threads going back to the beginning of the Forum.

Briefly, JI is based on natural harmonics, whereby the notes of the scale and intervals of chords are defined by small, whole-number fractions of the root. For example, the 3rd is 5/4 times the root frequency, the 4th is 4/3, and the 5th is 3/2. These intervals have harmonics with some identical nodes, and so tend to be "beatless." This system does not provide exactly equal intervals between the 12 notes of the scale. Fretless strings, horns and vocalists tend to use JI intervals and harmonies. When tuning a chord by ear, most people (in the Western world) will generally tune JI intervals. However, one can become accustomed to ET tuning and also tune that way by ear.

Fixed pitch instruments such as keyboards and harps cannot use a JI scale and play in all keys. Therefore, the ET scale was invented with exactly equal intervals between all 12 notes. Chords made with ET tuning will not be beatless, and will sound slightly dissonant. Most inexpensive tuning meters use ET.

Because of their ease of tuning between one song and the next, guitars can be tuned either way, or some compromise in between. You may have noticed that if you tune your 6-string by ear to have a good sounding G chord, it will sound pretty good in the keys of G, C and D. But it will sound off for the keys of E and A. If you retune to sound good in the keys of E and A, you will have to retune if you go back to the keys of G, C and D. This is more or less JI tuning. It sounds good in one key, but requires tweaking for other keys. If you tune your 6-string straight up to a meter, or use the method of tuning to an adjacent string at the 5th fret, you will have an ET tuning. It will sound about equally okay in all keys, but will not sound as sweet as JI in any key. Many guitar players don't realize the difference between these two tuning systems. They will tune everything straight up ET by their meter, then will hit the chord for the next song and tweak it a little. They started with ET then tweaked back nearer to JI.

Pedal steel tuning is a bit more complicated, because there are more strings and there are pedal and knee lever stops. As yu can see, their are proponents of both ET and JI tuning for pedal steel. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 05 July 2005 at 12:36 PM.]