Manufacturing time.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Apr 2005 3:22 am

I just have to ask..

The builders that have an 12-18 month backlog..

How long does it take them to actually build just 1 Steel ?

They have all the parts, and they start building Monday morning..when is the Steel complete ?

t

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Apr 2005 3:37 am

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 Apr 2005 3:59 am

If they only had "1" steel order to build they wouldn't have a 12-18 month backlog.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Apr 2005 4:33 am

Jack..thats not the question..

How long to build 1 Steel with all parts in front of them ready to go ?

an 18 month backlog is misleading..it may imply 100's of Steels on backlog or maybe 50,or maybe 10 or maybe 1...or worse..maybe NONE....

How many items on backlog is not part of the equation of how long does it take to build 1 unit.

Even the most advanced manufacturer who pops out products every hour know how long it takes for each single product to be completed.

Even GM knows how long it takes to build just 1 car...

So I'll ask again, regardless of how many are on backlog, how long does it take to build 1 Steel when all the parts are available ?

1 day, 1 week, 1 month , 1 year ?

This is not a question about integrity or quality..it's a general question of time.

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 April 2005 at 05:36 AM.]

Cor Muizer Jr · Post by **Cor Muizer Jr** » 21 Apr 2005 4:36 am

Well tony it should be ready at least at the end of the week or earlier IMHO.

if everything is assembled ,polished or what
and lay out on the bench or table i think you should be ready in a day.

but that is one steelguitar.

------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED Goodrich LDR2

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Apr 2005 4:44 am

Tony,

In my fathers case he starts every guitar without any premade parts, except a few unbuffed castings, so it takes quite awhile to find the right aged wood, than he builds the cabinet and handfits his work to the ordering musicians desire. The answer in this situation is "It takes as long as necesary to get it right".

When he assembled the ShoBud professional series, under your scenario, it took him one and a half to two days when everything was premade for him.

Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 21 April 2005 at 05:46 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 Apr 2005 4:58 am

Cor, yes thank you.

Paul, well spoken.

And I'm tkinking that this is the case with many builders like your Dad.

Each Steel is built as a custom unit, which makes it very difficult to define the term backlog..

thanks

by the way Together Again with Martina is really nice...

t

oh and by the way, I have no issues with build time. Thats between the builder and the client.

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 April 2005 at 06:06 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 April 2005 at 06:10 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 21 April 2005 at 08:20 AM.]

Cor Muizer Jr · Post by **Cor Muizer Jr** » 21 Apr 2005 5:47 am

thank you very much Paul,
now i know how your father build them and why it takes time, and maybe a lot of builders do it the same way like custom building as tony means.

but still i think when every part is completely ready to install i think it would be take a day and one is finished
( not included fine tuning )

------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED Goodrich LDR2

[This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 21 April 2005 at 06:48 AM.]

Lynette Richards · Post by **Lynette Richards** » 21 Apr 2005 6:32 am

I will answer this question for you about our guitars. If all the parts are laying in front of me, polished and whatever, ready to go. I can assemble a S-10 in 2.5 hours and a D-10 in 4 hours. I would have to say the biggest problem us, and many other manufactures face is getting the 150 parts or whatever it takes in front of you to assemble them. Here at Mullen we manufacture our own parts, so it takes a great deal of scheduling and work to have all of the parts needed. There are so many different parts on the guitar and most have many processes to become finished and ready for the guitar. This is what takes the time. Hope I helped a little.

------------------
Mike Mantey
Sales & Production Manager
Mullen Guitar Co., Inc.
(970) 664-2518
www.mullenguitars.com

Charles Dempsey · Post by **Charles Dempsey** » 21 Apr 2005 7:20 am

This thread intrigued me because I've been wondering the same thing.

In the flintlock era, guns were made one piece at a time. When something broke or wore out the replacement part had to be made by a gunsmith. Nothing was off the shelf. Nothing interchanged, even between identical guns by the same maker. These days you can screw together a working firearm out of the parts bin.

How can one guy make steel guitars from scratch, answer the phone, keep the books and do the repairs and tech support? Wouldn't the operation benefit from some standardization? And you can train just about anybody to use a buffer. Am I missing something?

There's a voilà player who shows up at rehearsal sometimes. He's always tuning the wretched thing.

Charlie (ducking

[This message was edited by Charles Dempsey on 21 April 2005 at 08:21 AM.][This message was edited by Charles Dempsey on 21 April 2005 at 08:25 AM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 21 Apr 2005 7:28 am

A voilà player?? What, he picks a string and...voilà ?

Charles Dempsey · Post by **Charles Dempsey** » 21 Apr 2005 6:29 pm

Dang! I killed another thread.

Charlie

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 21 Apr 2005 8:11 pm

Hook - I'm looking forward to it -- it will be the perfect mate for my Zum.
Did u ever manage to track down the Franklin you were after ??

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 21 Apr 2005 9:06 pm

I've heard that one builder outside the States, who reputedly fabricates everything himself, has orders for 70 guitars.
If anyone wants #71, be prepared for a wait.
As much as some folks would like these builders to lock themselves in the shop 24/7 until they get "your" axe ready, these people still need to have time for a life, take the wife out for an anniversary, travel to steel conventions, get a haircut, get over the flu and a hundred other things.
Even if they just hired someone to answer the phones and take care of email, could that person converse effectively about copedents, finishes, repair issues and the like? Probably not.
[This message was edited by David Cobb on 21 April 2005 at 10:07 PM.]

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 22 Apr 2005 12:15 am

these people still need to have time for a life

There you have it.My wife wouldn't let me lock myself up in the shop to get a steel guitar done.She would wring my neck after 2 days I guess.But Cor is right about this.If I have all the parts before me on a bench it would take 1½ to 2 days to get it all together.But that's me.I only started building a couple of years ago.

All my parts are crafted when they are to be assembled.I do build all my steels custom.

Like Herb said I think that there are several small builders that collect Social Security checks.I think he's right.
IMO there are only a few builders that do Exclusively steel work.
I build steels for a hobby.I couldn't live from it.When I started I had to finance all the labour that was needed to get all the CNC work done.Not to mention making all the paterns for this first steel.
My first build steel did cost me almost $6000 for a SD10.

Right now I am using a lot of casts.Using high quality aluminum.All my keyheads,pedals,necks,p-u brackets etc etc are casts.But you can't see the difference between one made from a billet alumimium or my casts.
Building a complete steel guitar the way I do takes time.Lots of time.
That's why I do it for a hobby.But my steel guitars sound just as good as the ones made by builders that do exclusively steel work.
And if you want to try one out you will have to wait till september,oktober when I visit America.That's when I bring my new one.A D12/11 with 9x9.It has a birdseye maple cabinet and necks with mother of pearl inlay.

Ron

------------------
Nikaro Steelguitars

[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 22 April 2005 at 01:19 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 22 Apr 2005 2:02 am

David C, how right you are.
i was on the fone the other day w: a steel builder & he told me just that
"man, i need to take a break & go fishin'"

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 22 April 2005 at 09:08 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Apr 2005 3:06 am

I think that if a builder has orders for 70 Guitars that is awesome.( as mentioned a few lines up ) But I would look at it in a totally different way..

let me present this in the best way I can..

assuming that the 70 guitars on order sell in the $4000 range, thats $280,000.00 US.

Business sense would tell me to do everything possible in my pea brain mind to fill all those orders ASAP.. Common sense says the same thing.

In this senario you hire everyone you know to do the mediocre tasks ( mother, grandmother, neighbor)( wife)( toddler) while the craftsman maintains control over the delicate items.

The master craftsman in this scenario does not need to be spending his time with a Phillips head screwdriver .

If I had the better part of $300,000.00 worth of orders I would even hire some of you guys to come assemble Steels !

That amount of business at ONE time is life changing..

it appears that to assemble a quality Steel it takes pehaps 2 days with the appropriate parts That means , yes, math 101 going on. 4 people building 3 steels/week could build this entire 70 unit order in approx 30-45 days.

So spend 60 days manufacturing parts, and the next 30 assembling..that puts all orders shipped and invoiced between 60 and 90 days.

Invoicing $280,000.00 over 90 days .. Not to shabby I would say..and thats with only adding 3 people who would be appropriately mechanial minded, but not brain surgeons.

but what do I know..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 April 2005 at 04:33 AM.]

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 22 Apr 2005 3:19 am

Paddy, I did not find one so I bought a new Carter and I`m very pleased with it at this time. Thanks for asking

Hook

------------------
www.HookMoore.com

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 22 Apr 2005 3:33 am

$280.000 is a big figure these days in steel guitar business(At least for me it is).And sure it's worth to hire some people that can help you with such an order.

while the craftsman maintains control over the delicate items.

To a real craftsman the whole guitar is delicate.That's probably the main reason why steel guitar builders don't have that many people on the payroll.They have a name to uphold.
I don't let anyone touch my steel guitars when I'm building.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So spend 60 days manufacturing parts, and the next 30 assembling..that puts all orders shipped and invoiced between 60 and 90 days.

Invoicing $280,000.00 over 90 days .. Not to shabby I would say..and thats with only adding 3 people who would be appropriately mechanial minded, but not brain surgeons<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ain't you forgetting something?
The costs for renting a building,material costs,machinery to build the parts,wages etc etc.

Ron

------------------
Nikaro Steel Guitars
Nikaro SD10 4x6-Nikaro SD10 4x5-2Peavey 112 Ultra Tube.
 nikarosteelguitars@planet.nl 
European Steel Guitar Forum

[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 22 April 2005 at 04:41 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Apr 2005 3:45 am

Ron, I hear ya..but Steel Guitars are not the only Hi Quality items being manufactured around the world today..

And no, of course not,I am not forgetting the cost of manufacturing, but with $300,000 worth of business staring you in the face, this is easily accomplished. I could have easily continued on with the expense leger as opposed to the income leger.

In this senario..and only this one please, a master craftsman would be wasting valuable time and his or her resources by turning a screwdriver.

It is not lesser quality when a mechanically skilled employee assembles to the procedures drawn up by the master engineer or craftsman..

In this scenario the craftsman oversees the project.

We all know and understand that some Steels are made completey by one master craftsman, and that is not the point in case.

If a Master builder does it all, I guess we can assume he builds maybe 10 or 12 Steels/year.

So with orders for 70..and thats the point of this whole excersise..it may take 7 years to complete the orders ..

Would you wait 5, 6 or 7 years for your new Steel Guitar ?

18 months is looking pretty good now...

You all can safely assume you know my answer....

t

Totally unrelated..
there are two main reasns why small businesses fail..

1) they don't take care of the small amount of business/expenses they already have..or

2) they do not know how to respond to a large increase in business efficiently.[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 April 2005 at 04:59 AM.]

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 22 Apr 2005 4:17 am

One thing to consider is the Pedal Steel Guitar is a very small "niche" market. It's not a mass produced or mass sold item. There is no reason for anyone to ramp up production as there is no market for it.

Carter does an outstanding job producing a complex and precision instrument in a short time. But even Carter is not a "mass manufacturer".

I'd probably be correct in saying that someone such as Sam Ash or Guitar Center probably sells more guitars in one day than steel guitars (both new and used) are sold in 1 year.

There is no reason for a steel guitar manufacturer to ramp up for that type of production. All their capital would be tied up in unsold merchandise. GM, Ford, Fender Guitar Co, etc can and does have millions of dollars in unsold inventory. I can't think of one Pedal Steel Guitar builder that could afford 1/10 of that.

Although we are used to "having it now" whenever we want something, the majority of Pedal Steel Guitar buyers will accept the wait times. Those that won't do have an option with Carter or a retail dealer such as Bobbe Seymour that stocks new Pedal Steel Guitars.

(Disclaimer: My comments in no way are meant to imply that one manufacturer does not have a quality product, just a reference to them as an example of a company that does produce product in a short time).

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Apr 2005 5:21 am

Jack, you are obviously correct.

The example stated above only applys to a situaton where a builder may have 70 or more units on order and he is the only one building Steels at a clip of 10 or 12 /year which implys a 6 or 7 year wait !

Cor Muizer Jr · Post by **Cor Muizer Jr** » 22 Apr 2005 6:02 am

Tony your absolutly right,
i am thinking the same way about this.

if you bring me all the parts that should be needed for a single 10 or an D10 or whatever i can tell you i build them just as beautifull with care and precise in a day.
but i think there is a another problem and i think that should be, are the parts available enough to build all those guitars in a short time?
i think not and thats why it take so long.

builders don't let machine parts in a large of numbers so they have to wait till a machineshop is ready to build them.

and after that they have to meassure all the parts, and so if it doesn't there is one part less. and so on

but still there are serveral builders (good builders)they can build you a guitar in a short time and with the same care and precision or better and not forget the after service as any other builder

------------------
Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED Goodrich LDR2 www.rainssteelguitars.com

[This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 22 April 2005 at 07:09 AM.][This message was edited by Cor Muizer Jr on 22 April 2005 at 07:10 AM.]

Charles Dempsey · Post by **Charles Dempsey** » 22 Apr 2005 4:19 pm

David Cobb 21 April 2005 10:06 PM

I've heard that one builder outside the States, who reputedly fabricates everything himself, has orders for 70 guitars. If anyone wants #71, be prepared for a wait.

Well, life is uncertain, and 70 deposits doesn't equal 70 guitars sold and delivered. But people do these things for different reasons. Some are in it for the money, some for the art, and some because they've got time on their hands. Who knows?

In the acoustic guitar field, Ryan and Olson are probably the most sought after. Last I heard, Olson had jacked his price up to 10 or 12K, and still had an 18 month backlog. Ryan was at 8 or 9K with a similar backlog. Their guitars are works of art, and I could wear one slap out in 10 years just like I did my Yairi DY-74C. Heck, I own guitars I'm afraid to touch. I don't know if I've got a musical instrument or a shrine!

A couple of weeks ago I called one of the flooded makers we're talking about to ask a silly question, and was surprised to get himself on the phone. He was very polite and helpful, and he sounded tired.

Charlie

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 22 Apr 2005 4:57 pm

this is bull Sxxt,a man can only do so much,if his reputation is on the line.he will know if it is top only if he does it himself.employes get lazy,don't care,will send out trash.no harm meant,but owner of a welding shop for 30yrs.,seen to much.

if you want top quality work,do it your self.

when your name is on the line,it makes a big difference.

if you want production stuff,buy it, i prefer mine hand made by a pro. farris