Promat #2

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 9 Mar 2005 2:47 am

Damir,

Sorry I thought you could figure it out! In English, we do not "WAIST" time - we WASTE time. But heck, who cares, I probably couldn't even spell the name of the foreign country were this guitar is assembled.

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 9 Mar 2005 5:39 am

Damir happily started this post about his second Promat and it has become somewhat unhappy. The following views are my personal observations only. do not try this at home without adult supervision!

1. Does it look like an Emmons? Yes
2. Are the parts changeable with Emmons? Maybe/maybe not.
3. Does it sound like an Emmons? Don't Know, never heard or played one but I'd bet a steak dinner that it does!
4. Does it have Emmons parts on it? Again, aside from the fretboard, I'd say no. I would assume that every part is hand made by the builder himself.
5. Would I buy one? No. Only because I do not care for push/pulls. I have one already.
6. Is the builder a master craftsman? Yes but no more than most all the major builders here in the U.S. I will say that he would probably be at the upper end of the scale though.

With that said, congratulations Damir on your second Promat. You have every reason to be proud of what you play. I would venture to say that it will never become the #1 steel guitar in the world but after the untimely demise of my good friend Jimmie Crawford, neither will mine. Enjoy, be happy and play often.

Greg Sullivan · Post by **Greg Sullivan** » 9 Mar 2005 5:58 am

edited..
[This message was edited by Greg Sullivan on 09 March 2005 at 06:04 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Mar 2005 6:25 am

This space reserved for future edition..

EJL

John Davis · Post by **John Davis** » 9 Mar 2005 7:03 am

What do you call a steel guitar player that does not have attitude?????

Answer??

A drummer??

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 9 Mar 2005 5:29 pm

Mr.Papic never had any intentions to become famous by bilding his guitars.He just loves what he`s doing and I know he is in LOVE with pedal steel guitars.I know Mr.Papic since 1988 when I bought my Fender 800 from him.My first pedal steel ever.At that time I didn`t have enough money to buy a Promat but I can still remember how amazed I was with the tone.Mr.Papic also holds a BA in inginering and has worked for some of the biggest companies in Europe.He knows a lot about materials and specialy metals.I think Promat has the tone it has just because it`s made with the best materials out there.I must say,that Mr.Papic is an older gentleman and very very nice as well.I must also say that he is sad about all the negativities on this forum ,concerning the Promat.I could even say,disapointed.It was my idea to try to present Promat in US since I love push pull guitars and there is no other bilder who makes them.I tought guys on the forum would be excited about this.Mr.Papic sells enough guitars in Europe and he doesn`t need US market at all.Believe it or not.It was my idea,and I`m not sure anymore that it was a good idea.Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut and played my guitar.However,I`m not mad at anyone and will try to answer as many questions as I can,I will say again,I don`t bild guitar so I`m very limited on what answers I can give you.Ronald,as far as I know Mr.Papic emailed you in details proces of making the Promat.I don`t see how can I know more than him.If you have any more questions please talk to him.Promat may look like an Emmons but it is not.Even the fret boards are made by Mr.Papic himself.Only thing he buys are Grover Kluson tuners,TT Jerry Walace pick ups and strings,and as far as I know that`s it.Everything else is custom hand made.I received many emails of support for Mr.Papic and Promat and also few new orders.I would love to see some guys here give a break to 70 year old steel guitar enthusiast from some small town in Europe,who dedicated his live to make his dream come true,to see people enjoy playing his guitars.

Db

ps

Mike,Eric and everyone else who had a nice word for me here,thank you for the kind words.Mr.Papic is not a member of the Forum but he loves to read posts on here.

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 09 March 2005 at 05:50 PM.]

Jack Musgrave · Post by **Jack Musgrave** » 9 Mar 2005 5:45 pm

I wish I had more time to post on the Forum, but I am too busy trying to figure out how to make Sho-Bud knock off guitars. I am sure the patent has expired after all these years. I will use Sho-Bud fret markers and possibly call it a Probud or maybe a Shomat. guaranteed to sound better than original Sho-Buds of course. I should be able to start taking orders after I run up to Home Depot and buy a grinder and some files

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 9 Mar 2005 5:53 pm

and how not to get upset when you see some idiotic posts like this one in example...

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 9 Mar 2005 6:13 pm

Damir, Damir, Damir....

How can you not see that the posts you call negative and idiotic started AFTER your post about answering "the same questions over and over again",? (which I realize is not an exact quote, but I can't give you an exact quote since you deleted that post).

I can understand it would be annoying answering the same questions many times, but if you had any intention of possibly distributing this guitar, as "It was my idea to try to present Promat in US..." implies, then you will have to get used to answering many questions over and over again, questions that may seem stupid and ridiculous but sometimes people ask those kind of questions!

I believe you must be familiar with our fellow Forumite Jody Carver, Hall of Fame inductee, legendary steel player and beloved representative for Fender for many years.... ask him sometime about answering questions over and over again, I'd bet he's been asked the same questions a million times about the Fenders he loves and helped sell. It's just something you have to accept gracefully and get used to, if you want to do business.

I don't believe anyone here has said a negative word about the Promat steel. Reggie Duncan said it very well, the negativity began with your own post and was the instigator for the smart-a$$ posts that followed.

I'm not writing this to argue or fight with you Damir, just trying to make a few points.

There's an old old expression, "you can attract more flies with honey than vinegar". I hope you know what I'm saying. I have no problem with you personally and I'd love to have a great hand-made guitar like the Promat. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 March 2005 at 04:53 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 9 Mar 2005 6:13 pm

Home Depot or not???hmmm...

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 9 Mar 2005 6:17 pm

Jim,I was thinking about the question "Is the Promat Emmons" wich I answered a gazillion times before.And those questions have no other purpose but to start an argument.IMHO

Db

I`m not distributing anything,I just wanted to let you know there is a way to own a new push pull if anybody wants one.

ps

and how would you call that last post?Inteligent and serious maybe??

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 09 March 2005 at 06:21 PM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 9 Mar 2005 6:45 pm

Damir, It sounds like you are promoting Promat. After all did you not take Mr. Papic with his guitars to Steel Guitar Nashville and get Bobbe to be the sole distributor in the USA?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 9 Mar 2005 7:00 pm

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 March 2005 at 04:54 PM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 9 Mar 2005 7:11 pm

I agree with you Jim. Perhaps Damir needs to stick to playing music and forget about the idea of promoting promats.

Jack Musgrave · Post by **Jack Musgrave** » 10 Mar 2005 2:16 am

naturally, my post was a little tounge in cheek designed to interject a little humor on this thread. My problem has never been with Promat guitars, but how they are represented I sometimes find quite humorus

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 10 Mar 2005 3:00 am

Damir, do you know anything about these ? http://sancho.hu/ViragSteel/

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 10 Mar 2005 4:44 am

Jack,

Put me down for a Sho Mat or a Pro Bud. It sounds like a great idea.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 10 Mar 2005 5:54 am

I also do not understand why there is ANY negativity associated with this thread of Damir's...

I have played 5-6 PP's, and old laquer S-10, several at Tommy Cass's, all restored, including John Davis's " Blondie",
several of the classic years,
plus I sat at the feet of Dicky Overby playing at ISGC on his '66...
I have a pretty good idea of the PP sounds, and how they play when set up both fair and perfectly.

I also played Damir's Promat for about 40 minutes, AND then saw Bobbe Seymour on video playing it and running out of verbal supurlatives for this steel.

This is a super instrument, it has "That Sound" big time.
It played like butter.
The sound was consitant right up into "Hughey Land",
i.e. it sounded great much higher up the neck than I can play well....

If you have not played this instrument,
you have no basis what so ever to be negative about it.
If you HAVE played it.... you would not be negative...
just jealous of Allan and Damir getting one and not you.

John Davis · Post by **John Davis** » 10 Mar 2005 6:16 am

David this post was not knocking the Promat guitar in any way, it only turned a little negative after the harsh way that Damir answered Ron`s question.
Jim said it clearer than I ever could have!
If you were in anyway a sensitive human being it would make you think twice about ever asking a ?
Nothing nasty said or intended in this post,
Lets use the icons.........heres a smile

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 10 Mar 2005 6:38 am

The Promat look like a fine piece of craftsmanship/engineering... really does... Hats off to mr. Papic for a beautiful guitar. What's the difference if some of the parts are based on old Emmons designs? No big deal..

Steel makers have been copying designs that work for decades.. I wonder how many design ideas were taken from MSA,Bud and Emmons over the last 25 years... PLENTY!!!... I would be pround to own a Promat. I Do understand a few of us getting a bit peeved at Damir's impatience... Forget it... He's a good guy and a fellow forumite, thats all that matters.

Many of our friends here get thier fellow forumites pissed at them on ocassion.. geeez, I do it all the time!! Lets appreciate Damir's new guitar for what it is. A NICE guitar... Damir, there's an old saying."The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked"... Be patient.... we're all on your side I'm sure! bob

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Mar 2005 8:22 am

None of the PSG "designs" sprang like from Venus from the sea in a sea shell! If you look at who was with what PSG maker when, and where they went from there, you can see that the trail is well marked, and the hardware does not change much from maker to maker. Body/neck materials and laquer vs. formica seem to be the biggest variable.

RE "pissed", ..it seems to be real easy to get a traditionalist bent out of shape by a simple critical comment about Sho Bud, Emmon's, or ??...it should come as no great surprise that someone "else" sharing about an instrument that they are in love with should do otherwise.

My labeling the BEAST an "Electric Concert Harp" instead of a "guitar" is enough to get the fuse lit!

Damir et al, that is one fine looking instrument!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 10 Mar 2005 8:35 am

Ed.. When I mentioned "designs" I was thinking more along the lines of the mechanicals... not so much body style/composition.... I see undercarriages on some fairly recent steels that look quite a lot like the MSA mechanisms I had on guitars close to 30 years ago... bob

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Mar 2005 8:50 am

Bob;
If there was a connection between my "designs" comment and yours, it was coincidence or subconsious...sorry for the confusion.

MSA was Morell, Shields, and Anderson as I understand it. I believe that Chuck Wright (SIERRA 1) was involved also along with several other PSG maker folk. I am not sure who copied whom and for which pieces, but the trail is there. "Nothing new under the sun".

The chap with the most patents seems to be GROVER (Gene) FIELDS = GFI.

Greg Sullivan · Post by **Greg Sullivan** » 10 Mar 2005 2:18 pm

I promised my wife I wouldn't do this "but"

Overall how does the Promat compare to the Original push pull Emmons guitars? I'm a trombonist but I love steel guitars and I would like to explore what's out there.

As you refer to your guitars as a "Horn" I have a real horn that slides as well and its a silver plated Conn.

Your guitars used to be called an "axe" axe me questions and I'll tell you no lies. Now its your turn,,explain the benfits of this guitar as oppposed to an Emmons.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 10 Mar 2005 5:27 pm

I have too much fun playing my guitar and there is too many good people out there to get mad or frustated.Like I said I will try to answer as many question as I can.I never heard a single bad thing about any other brands of steel from Mr.Papic.Maybe that`s why I get little upset when people start making coments about instrument they have never played or even saw.I would gladly let anyone interested play my guitar.I think this forum is great because of people who are involved in it.To get back to the Ron`s question ,the answer would be no,the changer on the new promats is made with some new ideas and even the old Promat guitars have changer wich are made of different material and also look different on the inside.If I had a picture of one I would have show it to you.The guitar looks like an Emmons because it is based on the push pull Emmons.There is many things changed on it tho.To me,I don`t really care what guitar looks like or what is based on as long as it sound good and play nice.For a longest time while I was working the road I played on old Sho~Bud`s and never cared about the look because they had the tone I liked.I didn`t have a chanse to play a Emmons push pull until Bobbe got me one.And I loved it ever since.I also love GFI,ZUM,Mullen,Carter and I don`t think there is a pedal steel brand I don`t love.I love steel guitar period.I play Promat because Mr.Papic is old and dear friend of mine who also makes great push pull instruments.I always wanted one so I got it,actually not one but three.I don`t get any kick back from the sales,I don`t even know how many guitars are in process of making right now,or how many are ordered.My goal was to connect people who would like to own a new push pull with someone who can make one for them.If I helped player get something he/she will be happy with,that is my pay.Promat is not for everyone,it is like buying a new `56 Impala and expecting it to drive like a `05 Hummer.But there is some people out there who are looking just for that and those guys are the ones who will order a new Promat.Promat is a new guitar but it comes with well known issues with tuning/weight problems as the old Emmons push pull guitars, but it also comes with a well known and desireble push pull tone.

Db

any questions??
I promisse I`ll answer it...

how does Promat compare to Emmons I can`t answer.Not because I don`t wont to ,but simply because I`m not qualified enough to do that.Im not caliber of the player who could make that statement.I`m sure if you ask Bobbe he could give you a good answer on that question.To me Promat sounds and plays like..well..a Promat.

CrowBear...
those guitars look nice but I don`t know anything about them unfortunaly.
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"Promat"
~when tone matters~

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 10 March 2005 at 05:35 PM.][This message was edited by Damir Besic on 10 March 2005 at 05:36 PM.]