D-10 Players: Why Aren't You Playing a D-12?

Instruments, mechanical issues, copedents, techniques, etc.

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Jim Smith
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Post by Jim Smith »

I tried a 12 string bar for a while, but it's too long to do bar slants comfortably.

Currently the first five strings on my C6 are F-D-G-E-C, which gives the same chromatics as the A&F E9 position. I've thought about adding a B string to mimic the open E9 chromatics with D-B-G-E-C. One thing holding me back is available string sets. For the tuning I have now, I can use a E9/B6 Universal set for both necks. My C6 uses the complete set, and for my extended E9, I replace the .068 B string with a .034 for the D string. Image<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Smith on 26 December 2004 at 09:43 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Doug Seymour
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Post by Doug Seymour »

I've owned 3 MSA & 1 Mullen S12s over the years since my first one from Reese (I traded him back a new S10 [my 1st MSA, after years of drooling] for a S12, so I could try adding the E9th relative strings to the top of my C6th (I'm an old Jerry Byrd enthusiast)
but I still couldn't seem to make the "Nashville" sounds I was hearing on the stuff coming out of Music City! I wish I had stayed in Texas when I visited Reese as I was going to radio school to get a first class license, and made Reese or Bud Carter teach me to play a Bb6th like they do!! I still believe in the S12......the string spacing might only be different than a Shobud
10 string neck.....I've only experienced that difference & think SBs are the only company with wider spacing.....didn't realize that Sierra had wider spacing than the others??
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Rick Schmidt
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Post by Rick Schmidt »

Great post b0b!

I have 2 pedal steels...a D10 that I learned to play on, and a D12 that I got 20 years later. At first I had no intention of getting into a D12, but I got such a great deal, it was impossible to pass up. Looking back, it was kismet!

I remember the first time I tried to take it on a gig, it was a "Nightmare on Clam Street"! After that, I didnt use it onstage for almost 10 years. During this whole time I left it at home and kept busy trying out experimental changes until I finally stumbled into a few ideas that I now can't live without. Unfortuanately, now I'm hooked on all 24 strings and everyone of the 10 floor pedals and 6 KLs. (Remember...when you get into D12's, the whole "less is more" thing goes right out the window. Image)

I still use my D10 on most of my gigs, and I'm still learning new stuff on it all the time...but I have to say that I can still do WAY WAY more on my D12. No question.

I now have two wishes in my PSG wish list:

1.) I could affor to buy a state of the art, "liftable" D12...and....

2.) That MSA would start making a D12 Milleneum!
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David Wright
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Post by David Wright »

Is this Double Neck thing new??? I think sceen a Double once, but it scared me!!!<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=Z ... xdm81541US' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_5.gif' border=0></a>..
Chick Donner
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Post by Chick Donner »

I have played D12 PP's for about 10-12 yrs now. Of course, I came from a 11-10 ZB that I played for 20 yrs., including my Nashville years. Yes, like B0b, I enjoy the big chords on E9th, and both D and G on C neck. I probably could live without the F. A 12-11 is my dream guitar.
Bill C. Buntin
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Post by Bill C. Buntin »

Wish I had one. Or at least a D10/12. I'd like to experiment with one.
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Rick Schmidt
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Post by Rick Schmidt »

Chick...I've tried just about every possible note on the first string on my 12string C6. I've had a high A on there for a couple years now and I think it's staying. (first 5 strings:A D G E C) Some guys might say thats too tinny, but I mostly use it for fast single note stuff and it sounds fine to me. Since I have a KL that raises both E's to F, I don't need an F dedicated string up there.
Gary Walker
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Post by Gary Walker »

As stated above, I too plan on going to a D-12 on my next purchase. I played a MSA D-12 for 16 years and went to a Mullen D-11 13 years ago but miss some of the things the extra string did on my E9 neck. Yes, the MSA was a bit on the "solid" side but it was such a great guitar and wish I had it back. It had it's own tone and was real killer.
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Jerry Hayes R.I.P.
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Post by Jerry Hayes R.I.P. »

12 strings creep in places where you wouldn't expect to see them. I have a speed pickin' video by Doug Jernigan where he's explaining some of the licks on some of his tunes and on one he's says "It doesn't sound like this on the record because I did it on a 12 string"....Imagine that! Also the Big E plays a 12 string C6th now I've heard, and then there's the "Rainbow Album". Also Cal S. mentioned he'd never seen an impressive player who didn't play a D-10 other than Maurice & Julian, how 'bout David Wright, Joe Wright, Jeff Newman, Bill Stafford? SoCal's Earnest Bovine AKA Doug Livingstone is a first call player in Los Angeles and plays a 12 string. Have a good 'un...JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

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Jim Smith
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Post by Jim Smith »

If I remember correctly, Buddy played a D-12 push pull on "Buddy Emmons Sings Bob Wills". Image Image
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Dave Ristrim
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Post by Dave Ristrim »

First off, Dan Tyack, you're gonna hate me but Paul Franklin did make one (and only one) D-12 and I got it! YES!! I called him back around 1986 or so, and asked ordered a D-12, he told me he doesn't build them. I said, well, it's in you catalog. He thens says, yeah, but I never got around to it, but wait, there is a D-12 cabinet under my bed that I started for someone that backed out. What color do you want? Black I said, well then I'll finish this one for you, says Mr. Franklin. Then he gives me a large discount on it (which he never does, never say never). There you go!
Now to why I posted on this thread. I tried a D-10 but missed the low end on the E neck. Also, I like having a G then a D on top of the C neck, as well as having a low A without hitting the boo-wah pedal (check out Bobby Blacks tuning on the "California Freedom" album). The major disadvantages of the D-12 are ; weight, extra string noise when recording, tonal differences from a D-10 (which I don't have a problem with), and the fact that D-10 players think you're a freak. But I don't have a problem whith that either because I know I'm a freak, because I have 4 D-12's. Plus I just try to be different when I can.
As far as the 12 string bar issue? Is there an issue? Why do you have to use a 12 string bar on a 12 string? Why do many players of 10 string steels use a 12 string bar? These questions and many more will be answered someday by a very wise man, not me.
Keep pickin', keep smiling even it it hurts!
Dave
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David L. Donald
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Post by David L. Donald »

Dave, how's the C6 side of the PP coming along?
Ray Minich
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Post by Ray Minich »

I just bought a 12 string 1" dia bar to try out. It's oversized behaviour reminds me of the medicine ball we played with in basketball in school. 1" dia & 4" long. A "medicine bar".
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Herb Steiner
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Post by Herb Steiner »

I was staring at my guitar, pondering b0b's probing question, when the answer hit me like the kiss at the end of a wet fist...

My guitar is missing 4 strings!

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Douglas Berry

Post by Douglas Berry »

I enjoy listening to all who use the universal,but most serious players will continue to use the D-10.The advatage is that you separate the tunings into the "beginner E9th"(not to imply it is inferior)where new players can afford to purchase and learn the instrument.Then one can go on to the C6 neck to open more musical horizons.I like to rest my arm on the back neck,but I play it about 40% of the time over E9th.The important thing to strive for is consistent tunings so that this instrument can continue to advance in changing musical tastes.The D10 is mostly standardized now, which is a plus for players and the instrument.The strings on the C6 are mostly heavy wound ones as we know..so when you need that pitch go there.The future of steel is in the D10(Not D12,S14 etc...) and the abstruse nonconformist rebel universal tunung will always be a curiosity(sorry Reece,Joe,Bob...love your playing though)I don't play a D-12 because ten strings is enough on each neck, and an S-12 Universal hurts the future of the instrument by not solidifying a standard tuning. Dogmatic proud egos aside, all odd guitars also muddy a clearer road to the insruments mastery by anyone who would dare to learn steel in our politically correct global corporate music age.D12s,D11s,U12s,U14s are not neccessary,give a talented musician a D10 and that is all he will ever need.Plus it says in the Torah and the bible to worship him with an instrument of TEN strings!So that is all the endorsement I need.I agree with the sacred pickers!May the eternal Master bless the D10!
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Jerry Hayes R.I.P.
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Post by Jerry Hayes R.I.P. »

Hey Douglas, although I don't play the U-12 anymore I'll have to disagree with you on one point. The U-12 players are closer to a "Standard" tuning than the D-10 players will ever be..... JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Jimmie Martin
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Post by Jimmie Martin »

i don't have one
Chick Donner
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Post by Chick Donner »

Right you are, Herb.(Chuckle, chuckle.)
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Post by Jim Phelps »

I think I like Herb Steiner and Robert Martin's answers best! Image

Much Thanks to Reece for dispelling many "old steelplayers' tales".

Yesterday I wrote this nice long post and just about the last line, the electricity went out and I lost the whole thing and I didn't feel like re-writing it all, but now I'm back to write it all over again for you lucky folks! Image Image

My first pedal steel was an early Fender 1000 D-8, then I went to a Sho-Bud S-10, ZB D-10, MSA D-10, and have played 10 string necks whether it was on a single or doubleneck ever since, with the exception in 1978 of owning a Sho-Bud permanent D-11, said to have built for Bobby Garrett. With that one, I found I really liked having that low E on E9th. I sure wish I'd kept that one.

After selling it I continued playing 10 strings, until around 2000 I went back to playing music full-time and wanted more than my old S-10 Sho-Bud with 3 & 2 as I'd taken a job as full-time steelplayer, so I called Bobbe Seymour. I told him I didn't have much cash and needed the most steel I could get for the money. He said he had an old MSA D-12 8 & 4 that was in good shape and he'd sell it for less than it was currently priced.

I bought it sight unseen and sent him a copedant to put on it, a newer setup than I'd been using for the last 30 years, so I could get more modern sounds. Unfortunately, I didn't know anything about extended tunings and didn't have the time to learn, so it was basically a D-10 setup with two extra strings each neck.

It arrived in Kansas the same day we were "shipping out" for my first gig with this new band. We just had time to meet at the leader's house, grab the steel still in the shipping box, load it up and hit the road. I hadn't even seen it yet!

We got to the location, a county fair, and I set up the new/old MSA and only had maybe 20 minutes to familiarize myself with it before the show started. I'd never ever sat at a 12-string steel or played any set-up other than my own onstage. I give myself a couple points for guts, if nothing else. Come showtime, I had to kick-off the set with a kindof tricky steel lick, and it came out fine as did the rest of the show.

I found that I really liked the two extra low strings on the E9th, and the two high "chromatic" strings on the C6th, although I don't play a lot of C6th. A disadvantage of this steel was that the E9th low strings had no pulls, the B pedal didn't raise the 11th-string G# to A, and because I only had 4 knees, the extended tunings were not really being taken advantage of. The extra low strings mainly only gave me added range when a low G# or E was useful.

I also found that after a year and a half of playing this steel full-time, I still would sometimes get lost in the middle-string grips. I have no trouble at all seeing all the grips on 10 strings, but on the 12 I can't see them as well and I'd make more mistakes on it. I thought the string-spacing might be narrower until I measured it and found to my surprise that it was the same as my Sho-Bud S-10. Can't use that for an excuse. I finally took off the two low strings from the E9th neck, just to find out if that really was my problem. As a 10-string, it instantly eliminated my confusion and I played much better, but then didn't have the low range. I tried playing more C6th to get the lower range and fatter chords.

After quitting the band and moving here, I decided to try the 12 strings again, and also to try something new. I wanted a more complete extended E9th so I checked out b0b's site at http://b0b.com/ and liked his Extended E9 setup. (Thanks b0b for providing us all with so much great info!) I took the bellcranks and rods from the C6th neck and used them to get as close to his setup as I could, without the vertical. I liked it enough to accept my problem with sometimes missing the middle grips.

Only thing was now I didn't have any pulls on C6, leaving me a non-pedal C6...

I gave it a lot of thought because I've read all the arguments for and against the "universal" setups but I decided to try it. I checked out some of the Universal setups b0b shows on his site and re-setup my E9th with a combination of a couple of the setups shown and I like it even better than the extended E9th I had just before. Funny thing is with the U-12 tuning, for some reason I don't get lost in the middle grips anymore.

In fact, I like it enough to sell my C6 neck, changer and keyhead. I don't want to start the universal vs. doubleneck argument, that's already been done to death. I'm just saying that for me, I really like the U-12, it works for me. For others, it may not be for them.

Even if I hadn't switched to the universal tuning, I would stay with the 12 string extended tunings, for the extra range.

I think the D-10 players' defense, "because (many famous steelplayers' names here) play or played D-10s" is not applicable, unless it is added that in their prime, the D-10 had much become the standard, even though the D-10's setups have never quite had a real standard. It's probably safe to say that the D-10 is still known more as a standard than any other configuration, but this is mostly because of the past. Standards always change with time, and so will the "standard" pedal steel. Buddy Emmons himself said it best: http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-008515.html

Thanks for your as always invaluable comments and insight Buddy.

...And we all know that BE doesn't stay with the "standards", never has, or wouldn't have developed the pedal steel as he has, to the instrument we have today. I'm happy to let those who prefer the D-10 play them, and those who prefer the D-12, S-12 ext. or U-12 play them.

I'm having a ball with this U-12 setup though, and plan to keep at it.

Image


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 28 December 2004 at 03:42 PM.]</p></FONT>
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Herb Steiner
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Post by Herb Steiner »

Thanks for that blast from the past wisdom of Buddy Emmons.

Buddy is as great a communicator with the language as he is with music. Concise, well-thought, makes a lot of sense, and with a touch of humor. We're all fortunate he chose the steel guitar.

But since I'm not just starting out, I'm staying with D-10. Image