Scrapping the Bb lever (X lever)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Aug 2004 10:15 am

The traditional way to make half-stops is by the feel where another string pull kicks in. How do you get a half-stop feel where all the strings are pulling together and you want the same half-stop feel on all of them, for example strings 1 and 7 for G/G#?

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 31 Aug 2004 10:24 am

Bobbe so you think Buddy play's little and corney?

I know you're going to edit for spelling now.

If Buddy had been thinking big like you.Say 25 years ago.Just think where he'd be today.I still like you anyway.

..bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 31 August 2004 at 11:29 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 31 Aug 2004 10:36 am

Bobbe Seymour:

Honestly, I feel this lever lowering the B's a half tone is a waste of space that could be used for more inventive things.

Bobbe, I'm intrigued. What would those inventive things be? Do tell!

thanks,
Drew

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Fessenden D-10 8+8 / Magnatone S-8 (E13)

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 31 Aug 2004 10:44 am

I should add: I do not have the split on that lever, so the Half tone raise with the split is not an option.

If I had an extra pull train tuning the split, I think I would definitely reconsider the whole thing... as it is, though, it was just an experiment to see what dropping B to A was useful for.

More to the point, there are some really interesting effects to be gotten that require it being on a knee, instead of P4 or P0. I've been playing around with the four string, all "A" unison, (possibly with strings four and/or eight added in with strings 3, 5, 6, and 10) releasing/engaging out into the one or four chord alternately... sounds really interesting. Not possible unless the B pedal, and B to A lower lever can be engaged at the same time.

Sorry to run on... I may change my mind tomorrow, but at the moment I don't really use the more weird whole tone scale possibilities of the Bb. I would keep it if I had more than 5 KLs, I think, though.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 31 Aug 2004 11:36 am

Bobbe,
Say you've got a five knee E9 set-up. What would you put on the vertical?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Aug 2004 12:37 pm

Bobby B.

I, too, chose to raise both my F#s to G# in preference - that's MY take on the way it should sound. I've become accomplished at half-pedalling this one, so a feel-stop is less of an issue now. Do I have a bar-hand like Lloyds? Maybe not, but it's not awful, either.

For me, Bs to Bb is a really useful pull, as one can (as someone else has said) get the change without changing positions - you keep the relationship with the chromatic strings, too. I have it on RKL so that I can lower the Es and Bs with the A and B pedals depressed for a useful diminished - not the only diminished by a long way, but a useful one, in my view.

I've recently put the 5th 'lower' to A on my 4th pedal, but the jury's out at present - I need to spend more time with it before it becomes a fixture. Right now, I doubt it.

I appreciate that I don't have a '615' area code, but I'm still capable of intelligent thought on this subject....

RR

RR

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 31 Aug 2004 12:57 pm

Frank I think Bobbe has the Franklin 4th pedal there.

.........bb

Guys if I had to choose between the B to Bb and the B to A I would go with the B to A.It's easy,It works great in the open or pedals down position.It mixs great with the B pedal and I love to mix it with the 9th string lower and of course the 6th string lower.Again a lot of good really easy to play stuff there.I lower both 5 and 10 a whole step but as I stated I have a light 1/2 stop on them.

That being said.I still like the way Buddy Emmons uses the B/s to Bb's on the old Ray Price type country.

One other thing.The vertical knees on an Emmons suck.To hard to use.Why they haven't improved this is mystery to me.That's why I had mine modified.I can set them as low as I want. They fold over backwards for transport.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Aug 2004 2:30 pm

How did you improve those awful verticals, Bobby?

It's a little better when I slide some rubber tubing over the lever, but it's still not good. I can't imagine why they haven't figured something better out, either...

The Zum that I briefly owned was much better in this respect.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 31 Aug 2004 2:44 pm

I think the full step B to A is a better option, and if you really need the Bb you could always add a half tone feel stop to the same lever and have both for the price of one !!!

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 31 Aug 2004 3:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You could just back up 1 fret with the B pedal and the F lever and get the same change on the same strings (3,4,5,6,8,10).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how I've always done it. and sometimes I just pick strings 3 and 5 with B pedal down and back up 1 fret. I very seldom use my LKV(B to Bb). maybe I could lower B to A on LKV.

Also, you can get a similar sound by just engaging your E to F lever, pick strings 4 and 5 and back up 1 fret.
Terry

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 31 August 2004 at 04:19 PM.][This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 31 August 2004 at 04:33 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 31 Aug 2004 3:58 pm

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 31 Aug 2004 4:24 pm

Bobby stands UNDER the guitar, raises his arms, and pushes the lever with both hands!
BOBBY, I'M SORRY, OK????
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FWIW, Bobby is one of the FINEST steel guitar players it's been my privilege to hear, play with, or know. Lest anyone think I don't like the little feller.[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 01 September 2004 at 12:06 AM.][This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 01 September 2004 at 12:06 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Aug 2004 5:20 pm

Thanks, Stephen - I knew it had to be something like that!

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 1 Sep 2004 7:28 am

I kind of go with Bobby B. I like the whole tone drop with a half tone feel .

As he says, you get the PF pedal, (I believe splits them now) so that ties in.

The half stop feel can get you the Bb(close enough), so you get a lot of use out of one knee lever, no waste there....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 2 Sep 2004 1:30 am

How about the 7#9 found on strings 7 5 4 3 (Root 3 b7 #9) w B's to Bb and Bpedal.

The B-Bb changes the m7 voicing found 3 frets above open position to a m6 which works as a IV9 chord (in addition the Bpedal can raise the 9th note to a #9.

Or one could go from a dom7th voicing at 5th fret, strings 5 4 3 (E's-Eb + B pedal) E7 to 5th fret (B-Bb + Bpedal) B7#9.

The voicing on strings 5 4 3 (B-Bb + B pedal) is also a 13th voicing w no root (b7 3 13 = 3 b7 #9 )

The same voicing on strings 5 4 3 can also be found by lowering B-A and E's-Eb at the same time.

The B-Bb is a change I use either by itself or in combination w absolutely all other changes on the PSG.

If the LKV is awkward to use in combination with other changes one might not discover the full potential of the B-Bb lever.

There is no problem to play without the B-Bb lower. Personal preferences and playing style might call for other changes.

There is lots of others changes that can work on LKV instead. But first the LKV must be adjusted so it is comfortable to play.

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 02 September 2004 at 02:33 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Sep 2004 4:02 am

I have changed to a full tone lower off the X lever on the 10 string but still use 1/2 tone lower on the 5 string. Yes I do have the PF 4th Pedal which also brings 10 down a full tone. Totally different application.

the phrase..
9 natural ,9 lower, 10 natural, 10 lower full step. Very deep resolve of AB pedal chords...

I guess what it comes down to is this, and I completely agree with BS( not Barbara Streisand) You add changes according to the style you are developing and what you are looking for in tonality and phrasing.

There is no right ,wrong or whatever..the change that you add or take away is just an extension of what you are playing or trying to accomplish NOW...

Personally I don't really search for the same thing all over the place, but I do look for phrasing that can be added easily in the common positions that I play out of.

The great thing about this Instrument..wait..Instruments that have the ability to have configurations changed easily , is that if you try it and don't like it..back it goes..or if you hear something else that you "NEED",it can be added.

See ya in St Louis..
t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 02 September 2004 at 05:03 AM.]

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 2 Sep 2004 4:41 am

Hiya Bengt...

For what I've got going on primarily at the moment (more traditional country stuff), I don't find a whole lot of use for the B half-step lower.

However, I don't have it on a vertical anyway. The vertical is the 1st full step raise with 7th full step lower.

Just got used to having it that way around, though there are reasons why it is inconvenient. I can comfortably use the LKV whith or without pedals, but it is difficult to use with the other left knees.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 2 Sep 2004 4:59 am

I can't imagine being without the Bb lever.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Sep 2004 8:36 am

Without it, there's a "hole" in the tuning. With it, you can get any note within the range of the strings at any fret. Without it, you'll always be missing that one note (open A#) and half-pedaling to get another (C).

If that's okay with you, so be it. Maybe we don't need to have all of the notes at every fret. Hey, Lloyd Green doesn't have a middle A# or a middle G, and he does just fine!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 2 Sep 2004 9:32 am

b0b: I don't have a tunable split on there, so the split A/X half-step raise (which would be very cool to have...) is not an available option anyway. It's just the one pull I could most spare, in trying to add stuff on.

I was curious here whether anyone else had gotten by without this pull... since it's such a standard change, I wasn't sure whether people ALL had it.