Anyone reviewed the 2 knee lever video?

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 20 May 2002 1:58 am

I lower my E's on right knee going left.
I raise my F#'s on my left knee going right
and hardly use it. I could put it on there and still keep my other two knee levers.
(I have an MSA semi-classic with a BL pickup)
It should make life and steel playing very interesting.
Thanks for the reply, Bobbe.[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 20 May 2002 at 02:59 AM.]

pdl20 · Post by **pdl20** » 20 May 2002 6:50 pm

Got the tape, VALY INTERESTIN.

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 23 May 2002 5:44 am

I received my tape yesterday after ordering it on Monday from Bobbe's site, that's fast! Thanks Bobbe.
I have only had the chance to watch it once and that wasn't with my guitar handy so I'm not ready to form an opinion on the tuning yet but I will say that the tape is more of a demonstration video than a teaching tape. Bobbe's enthusiasm for the tuning clearly shows through and some of his justifications for using it are very sound. If you are a beginner it might be hard to get a whole lot from this tape but anyone that has spent some time on E9 should be able to pick up on it quite easily. By the way that's one pretty Emmons.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 May 2002 10:34 am

Jay Jessup,
Very true, this is a demonstration tape but the already good players will get along great with it and learn a lot from it as they can "see and do" easley, the near beginners will require a little more detail in executing the finer points.I feel your review is very accurate. This is why the low price and also why we are releasing another very simple teaching tape with the total beginners in mind. We wish to help all, pro and non-pro. Just let me know when the next one is needed and thank you for the nice reviews. Remember, this tape is a teaching-demo tape and is not intended for entertainment perposes,(although it seems to be appreciated as one)This tape is produced without all the fancy production frills which keeps the price affodable. I'm here to help,-------www.steelguitar.net [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 23 May 2002 at 11:36 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 May 2002 10:59 am

So, let me get this straight. This video promotes a knee lever that:

1. lowers the 2nd string D# to D
2. raises the 7th string F# to G#
3. lowers the 9th string D to C#

The other knee lowers both E's to D# - a very standard lever.

First of all, I believe that learning to play steel without the F lever is a mistake. I believe in the F lever so strongly that it is the only lever on my Sho-Bud Maverick. I can get along fine without the others, but i'm not willing to live without the F lever major chord inversions.

Secondly, what's the point of putting the 7th string raise on the same lever as the 2nd string and 9th string lower? It's common to use the 9th string lower to create a "half stop" feel on the 2nd string, so that you can also lower the 2nd to C#. Adding the 7th string change makes it pretty hard to do this. I feel that the 7th string change belongs on a separate lever (if you need it at all). I put mine on a pedal.

Anyone can publish a video or a course for any tuning or pedal change that they can dream up. You can play good music within nearly any set of reasonable limitations. The standard 3+3 E9th, however, is a base level that every player should learn before moving on to other ideas. A 1-lever or 2-lever course is not for beginners. Beginners need the basics, and the basics are 3+3.

I know that Bobbe and I don't agree on this, but I couldn't stay quiet about it.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 May 2002 12:45 pm

Well put, b0b.

I've watched Bobbe play this two-knee set-up and, while he plays on it very nicely, I'm far from convinced that it would afford me all the changes or inversions that I constantly use.

I'm all for simplifying the standard set-up, and you won't find 'lick pedals' on my guitar, only 'chord' pedals (my terminology, but I think it's clear), but I believe the 'F' raise is a liberating one! It's got to be four 'knees' on E9 for me.

(I, personally, feel the same about lowering the 5th and 10th a half-step, but that's just my opinion......)[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 23 May 2002 at 01:51 PM.]

Chuck Martin · Post by **Chuck Martin** » 23 May 2002 8:13 pm

I recently picked up an MSA SS that only has 2 knee levers on it; the 1/2 step lower (RKR) and the 1/2 step raise (RKL) for strings 4 & 8 (Es). These are the changes I use the most and the only ones I feel must be on my guitar. I have other steels with the "standard" 5 knee lever setup but several of the levers I don't use very much (VKL, for example). I agree with Bobbe that most guys don't use or need 5 levers on their guitar to play steel but I'm not yet sold on his "trick" lever. My approach to steel is to move in and out of the various chord inversions up and down the neck.
[This message was edited by Chuck Martin on 23 May 2002 at 09:16 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 May 2002 8:44 pm

This is just exactly why I didn't want to put the tuning on the forum before it could be shown or taught. It is very obvious that the tape has not been seen by the detractors.
To analize this on paper before seeing or hearing is like the population of Kittyhawk N.C.in December of 1903, looking at the Wright Brothers and saying, "that thing will never fly". I feel Roger and bOb need to see the tape first and listen to what can be done before any judgments be made, after all, the title of this post is "anyone reviewed the 2 knee lever video", not "I saw it on paper and it wont work" video. It is the combinations that are the great breakthrough, not a "stomp on this pedal and hear a lick!" .
To dismiss it without trying it or seeing it is pretty negitive. Many great players have tried it and have commented on its great merit. Doug Jernigan, Stu Basore, Randy Beavers,etc. Ever heard the expression, "Don't knock it 'till you've tried it?" Might try to apply it here.

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 May 2002 8:58 pm

Hey guys, you send me a 10 min. video of you playing E9th with 5 knee levers and I'll send you one of me playing with two knee levers. Lets see how much more music one gets than the other. Remember, I've had several more hours now on this tuning than when the video was made too. But then, look how many more hours you have with 4-5 knees than I have with just two.
This tuning just keeps getting better, and is so fast to learn. Everything you touch works musically.
Play the intro to "Night Life" on your set-up,(E9th) then listen to it on the "2 knee set-up."
Bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 23 May 2002 at 10:00 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 May 2002 9:06 pm

Also, as I say on the tape, there is nothing wrong with having a E to F knee lever on the guitar also. I just show you on the tape how to get this change without the lever. You can have all the knees on the guitar you want , as long as you can handel them, they don't get in your way and you don't mind "wearing" your guitar, but you DO NEED TO HAVE THIS LEVER, and learn how to use it.
Bobbe ( sorry about filling your hard drive -bOb-)
Bobbe

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 24 May 2002 5:30 am

Ooops - sorry I spoke! (

)[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 24 May 2002 at 06:31 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 24 May 2002 5:47 am

Roger,nothing out of place with what either you or bOb said, that's what this forum is for. What I need to make very clear is that there is NOTHING wrong with using 3-4 knees in addition to this "trick" knee. Raise the Es, Raise strings one and two if you wish, but not with the "trick knee". This lever provides the best of all worlds as I demo on the tape. Russ Hicks, is also of one of the
belivers of this lever. I welcome ALL comments and will answer all questions.Thanks to all.

Support your forum[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 24 May 2002 at 06:51 AM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 24 May 2002 5:50 am

I'm always interested in something new. In this case I have some concerns on the seventh string.
On my guitars I have always looked upon the seventh string as a helper string. It's there when needed. A bridge, a step,....it also just sits there waiting to combine when a ninth chord, sixth chord, major, minor etc figure in where convenience dictates it's use.
I take it that Bobbe's new change gives this string a new role. One that puts it more in centre stage; and that's fine but you have to be careful with No.7 folks. It must be tempered so that it sounds good with the pedals both up and down. It must also sound right with the top chromatic strings one of which is F#. I do not tune my F# strings quite the same incidently. Does everybody else?
I have always found the seventh string to have a "taut" and somewhat dead feel and have never been as comfortable with it as the others. On my guitar it just sits there waitng to be called on. I don't have any knee lever or pedal connected to it so as not to compound the potential "in tune" problem.
Actually in all my years of playing E9th I have always regarded the seventh string as the odd man out. It just doesn't have any
"Balls".
Bobbe's idea has my attention however. I am always listening when he's around.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 24 May 2002 5:54 am

This knee makes the seventh string one of the most important on the neck. I DO advise you to go to a lighter guage though! It will help get some "snap " back in the tone of this wire. Thank you Roy. I listen to you too!

David Weaver · Post by **David Weaver** » 24 May 2002 6:57 am

Bobbe Seymour is in a unique spot and for that reason alone, he merits a serious hearing on what gets him excited.

First, Bobbe is a master player, so he isn't going to get excited about a system that compromises the quality of his playing or limits his music.

Second and more uniquely...he has to SELL guitars to make a living. Therefore he has to think about the beginner player and what will work for him (her). To sell guitars, he has to think about the monster learning curve that the instrument precludes for anyone taking up steel guitar. If he can make it easier for the beginner that walks into his shop and says "I want to try playing steel guitar", he has a better chance of keeping that player motivated and excited about the guitar.

If Bobbe can help me, I certainly will listen. I want to be able to get that E9th steel sound out of my guitar. But I am an amateur player in every sense, and 5 knee levers are too many to keep up with.

I'm not quite ready to turn my guitar over and take the wrench to it, but I would like to hear more as this story develops.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 24 May 2002 8:03 am

Aw c'mon David, I'll send you a wrench!

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 24 May 2002 8:23 am

I watched the video and its absolutely awsome. I would like to be able to play like that. I ordered the all pull maintenance video too. Hopefully it will tell me whether to remove the pedals with a hacksaw or a hammer and chisel.

Wayne Baker[This message was edited by Wayne Baker on 24 May 2002 at 09:24 AM.]

guitar543 · Post by **guitar543** » 25 May 2002 4:36 am

I would like to ask how many of you players have studied BE's course "learn to play pedal stel guitar" put out by Emmons Guitar Co. in the 1970's. It consists of 10 Ray Price tunes done as instrumentals.Highly melodic stuff. Most of what BE plays can be done w/ a+b pedals and e lower lever.He rarely uses f lever and most times it is as a passing chord (aug.) going to a 1V chord w/a pedal.(this can be done w/bar slants) My point being that with combining his "trick lever" with the e lower change, I believe Bobbe's video probably really does offer a solid foundation to learning steel w/ the set up he teaches. Mike DiAlesandro (besides Bobbe was real nice to my wife and I when we visited his store a couple of years ago!)

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 25 May 2002 10:44 am

Bobbe,
Maybe I'm way off here but I keep hearing you say "this tuning". Is this a different tuning than the standard E9 or is it a tape that will open your eyes to more ways to use these two knee levers that we may not have thought of before? I'm thinking it's the second choice here but just wondered. Also this is yet another good reason not to have the two E knee levers split up. If the lever lowering the E was on the RKL and the lever lowering the D# were on the RKR which is pretty much standard with most of us, you wouldn't be able to use the two knee levers together. I've got Tommy Whites Hot Licks video and it makes good use of these two knee levers as well. As for having the 7th string raise on the lever that lowers the 2nd and 9th strings are concerned, I've had that on my guitar for at least 12 years and wouldn't be without it although I'm only raising my 7th string a half step. I have had it raise the 7th a whole step but found it to be too hard a pull and it would make the whole guitar move to use it. Of course I'm playing an Emmons P/P and it may be a little harder on this guitar than an all-pull too.

slick · Post by **slick** » 25 May 2002 11:12 am

Hey Bobbe,
I got her upside down and i got my wrench out,im gonna do it.

S---k
Wayne Broyles

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 25 May 2002 1:52 pm

Hey guys (and gals),
I haven't seen the video but I have a pretty good idea of what Bobbe's doing I think! I don't have it on a knee but I have used the whole tone raise on string 7 for a long time now. I use it at the pedal 1 position to the left of my A pedal like Tom Brumley does. Just by using that change and lowering my E's I can play a very nice version of Last Date and some other nice things. Also if you do the position say in the key of A where you got an A at the 8th fret by using pedal A and the E to F lever. If you've got an all pull guitar, just go to the 8th fret with your C pedal and lower string 4 against it with your E to D# lever. I'm really interested in simplifying my tuning. Last year I gave up the Universal after over 20 years and went back to a simpler E9 based tuning.
Back to Bobbe's setup! I can see some nice augmented positions on this and also some diminished chord voicings with it. It's really a great breakthrough when you analyze it. More with less! What could be wrong with that. Also by lowering the D to C# on the 9th string you can get the first voicing of Nightlife in C at the 3rd fret by playing strings 4,5, & 9. Keep it up Bobbe, I think you're on to something.

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

Abe Stoklasa · Post by **Abe Stoklasa** » 25 May 2002 1:59 pm

Hey Guys, YOU MUST LISTEN TO ME!!! I've just watched it, and have tried the set-up, and you must beleive me that you won't loose anything, you will gain. I will still have 4 knee levers. In fact, and if you don't get anything else out of my review, just take in this.

You will NOT loose anything you've already learned. You will only gain.

I will have a knee that lowers E's and one that raises E's. (This is standard to have both on one side, of course). I will label these as knees 1 and 2. On the other side will be the trick knee lever (knee 3). Usually knee 3 would raise string 1 a full step, and lower string 6 a full step. Well, my fourth lever will do what my 3rd use to do. So, you will not lose anything you've learned. Now, remember, this is just what I'm doing. You can do what ever you want, as long as you have this trick lever, and you must have the knee that lowers the E's on the opposite leg.

This lever will revolutionize everything I've learned. Not only will I be able to play what I have already learned, I will be able to add to it, and broaden my styles.

You must watch the video to get the full potential. Otherwise, you won't know what you're doing. It's not hard at all. Please don't judge until you've actually sat down and tried it.

Remember, it won't hurt you in anyway, because you won't lose any of your old functions. It can only help you.

I hope this has helped someone.

Bobbe has really got something here, and, everyone, it's definately worth a look.

You guys cannot honestly tell me you've never said to yourself, "Well, if I could only have a knee lever that did this or that." You get it with this setup, only you don't have 40 knee levers floating around.

And, your pedals will stay the same. All that's changing is one knee lever.

Even if you don't think it's for you, just watch the video. Try it out. You will change your mind. When I first seen it, I had my setup changed immediately. I've never been more free!!!!!!![This message was edited by abraham on 25 May 2002 at 03:42 PM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 26 May 2002 2:07 pm

Try it out. You will change your mind. I've never been more free!!!!!!!

That's a scary thought.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 27 May 2002 6:13 pm

TRICK LEVER: MMMMMMMM

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 27 May 2002 7:30 pm

Yes Johnny, it is sort of a funny thing to call it, maybe a "combo lever", or a combination pull lever, naw, it needs to be a short name, like a "Z" lever, you know, the last one you'll ever need to install, yes, the Bobbe Zeymour "Z" lever, that will work, I liked your suggestion but "MMMMMMM" is just to long, and it's to hard to spell, and it means too many other things,like MMMMMM, she looks good, or MMMMMMMM, these ribs is reel gud, or maybe , MMMMMMMM this knee lever really does deserve looking into a little more, Naw, a Zum with three necks doesn't kneed one! ( A Zum with a "Z" lever?)

Levers and pedals, A thru Z, the end is upon us!

Bobbe Zeymour [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 27 May 2002 at 08:31 PM.]