Millenium

Jerry Clardy · Post by **Jerry Clardy** » 21 Jun 2004 10:20 pm

Jeez, Joey,

Just get one and try it. It's not THAT expensive! Then tell us what you like or don't like.

I can't think of anything I'd change about the design; so there's nothing negative to report here! And I do know a good guitar when I see one.

It took a lot of courage for a company to take on the expense and committment of R&D for a design change that is this progressive. In my opinion, it is this type of forward thinking, vision and courage that will keep the PSG alive in the new millennium.

And, for the record, I have no stake either way in the legal issues and no affiliation with MSA except for years of admiration for Reece's professionalism both musically and "business-wise". (I don't think Reece would intentionally steer anyone wrong.) I had really good results from a D10 Classic in the 70's and our music store carried MSA's as well as most of the other brands who sold through dealers. The precision workmanship was really evident in the MSA's then, too. Reece has always had it together musically. He is the first I remember to release PSG instrumental albums in sets and it wasn't just country. He can play it all.

I agree with David, try a Millennium with no preconceived notions and give it an honest and individual evaluation. IMHO there's a good chance you will remain committed!

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 22 Jun 2004 1:39 am

Jerry,
I never tried one, but I looked them over close two year ago their first year in St. Louis.

I agree they are beautiful, and the engineering and innovation is top notch.

I've heard great players play them, and they sounded great.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 22 Jun 2004 2:50 am

I have heard a few millennium guitars and even played one. What an experience!! I just love that guitar. However, sadly the cost is out of my range at the moment. I wonder if it would be possible and even financially feasable for MSA to make a low cost millennium type guitar. Or, perhaps do you think that they might start up manufacturing the traditional classics again. If they did, I think that there would be a great demand for these wonderful guitars.

rian
a Millennium wannabe owner

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 Jun 2004 7:16 am

For what it's worth, the cost of a Millenium is not above the inflation adjusted cost of Sho-Buds, Emmons, and MSAs back in the '60s and '70s. But hopefully it will someday come down to the lower cost we've come to expect in modern pedal steels.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 22 Jun 2004 8:24 am

I commend MSA for taking a bold plunge into the pedal steel market , and making such and inovative product such as the Millenium ...The R&D costs must have hit an all time high, and the cost of carbon fiber is NOT cheap !!...My thoughts that there are not a lot of them around to talk about stem's from a couple of things..Again this is my opinion , and I'm sure that there will be some who agree , and some who don't ....The cost of the instrument is high, and justfully so ...Like any other business who comes out with a new product with new technology, they have high costs to deal with ....It's the nature of the beast ....The next reason I think that it doesn't sell like hot cakes is the fact that most pedal steel players on the whole are very traditional like in their ways... They will tend to stay with the older gear, which is great gear , and they will not easily accept change, whether it's for the better or not ... I dont say this in a disrpectfull manor at all.... Simply a statement of what I have observed in the industry .... Most of what is made today is made much more cheaply than what was made yesterday .... Many older product's are made head and shoulders better than the newer items, and sound a lot better too !!... There are however newer product's like the Millenium that really are innovative, and really do need that "leg up" to move the industry forward ....

Whether or not any one of you agree with Joey's statement , or whether or not you like what he said, is your opinion ... Joey has every right in the this great country of our's to speak his peace !!.... It's called " Freedom of Speech" and this is what this great country of our's was founded on !!...Don't take that right away .... Just one man's opinion ....Jim[This message was edited by James Quackenbush on 22 June 2004 at 06:19 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Jun 2004 10:08 am

I will rest on my original observation.
I tried one in St Louis last fall.
It just blew me away.
And that was only an S-10 E9 and I really was playing much more C6 up till then.
But it said to me ;T ake me home, NOW!

And I have been pining for one ever since.

I also picked it up.... dang it's light.

After going to Paris on the train yestrday for a gig, with a D-10 Sho-Bud,
and then back today and getting hassled by the controlers about the large box in the walkway etc.

I REALLY wish I had one even more now.
It is clear that for any road gigs here I need a very light and smaller SU-12
Also something that will come out of the box darned close to in tune....

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 22 Jun 2004 10:48 am

If I could sound like this on it, I want one too!!!

(Tommy White on the Opry backing Connie Smith) http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/youvegotme.mp3

I think it has a beautiful tone... Of course anything Tommy plays sounds beautiful.

Respectfully,
Dave Burr

Bill Atwood · Post by **Bill Atwood** » 22 Jun 2004 1:16 pm

My beautiful new Jet Black S-12U Millinium arrived a couple of weeks ago and all those "what ifs" are there in spades! The inovations are just frosting, the main course is the sound.I ordered mine with a Geo L 12-1 pickup for a Fat sound at the time I thought it would be nice to have a brighter sound some of the time so had a 7-12 mounted for easy change out. On my old Zum, the 7-12 was too bright for my ear but on the Millinium it really sounds great. I still can't decide which pickup will become my regular choice. When David Wright left Spokane a week ago his S-12U 9X6, checked in at 48# in the case! Erik, my friend Barbara Crowell should have received her shinny new Green S-12U Millinium yesterday or today so we have you surrounded! Hope to see you at the next NWSGA event, there should be 3 there for you to play.
B flat may be where it's at but E9/B6 Gets Chix-No Magnets Required!

Joan Cox · Post by **Joan Cox** » 22 Jun 2004 1:19 pm

I have been playing the Millennium since March of this year. I am very pleased with the way the guitar plays. I got the guitar on the Thursday night of the Dallas show this year, and I played it on the show on Friday. I told Johnny that it was comfortable and it felt like it fit like a glove. I'm extremely proud of this guitar and the tone it has is wonderful.
Joan

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Jun 2004 2:36 pm

Ok,

I do not own a Millenium. I have NEVER seen one in person. I have never heard one. I have only seen pictures of them. I have no hesistancy to state what in my opinion is (pro AND con), from what I saw in the pictures.

Based on this:

Pros:

1. Absolutely stunningly, gorgeous Pedal Steel Guitar.

2. Workmanship underneath and on top appear to be absolutely superb.

3. If there is no cabinet drop, a winner for sure, that can indeed overcome a lot of "cons".

4. The infinitely adjstable (up and down) pedal rods IMO, is a great idea.

5. With respect to number 4, The adjustment itself is pure genious.

Cons:

1. Not enough selections of holes in the bellcranks for more precise "timing" of pulls.

2. Open slotted holes in the bellcranks, is not good design IMO. IE, same string pulls can cause unwanted movement of tuners at the right end plate, making it difficult to know which one to put one's tuning wrench on. I fought this on a Sierra the entire time I owned it.

3. While the infinitely adjustable pedal rod idea is genious, IMO a sliding rod in a plain aluminum hole is almost certain to cause premature wear in that hole. Particularly since the rod does not pull straight down. Because it is naturally at an angle, the forward wall of that hole will receive the entire brunt of the pulling tension.

Note: This would NOT be a con, IF they had used (or begun using) a space age bushing like Delrin in this hole.

4. The bellcrank swivel is longer than the width of the bellcrank, which means adjacent pulls like pedals 3, 5, 7 and 8 will not permit perfectly straight parallel pull rods.

5. Right leg knee levers that are not located in the center of the cabinet (rather on the rear arpon), IMO is not a good idea. Again, I developed a real frustration in this on my Sierra. IMO, rear mounted levers is ok on left leg knee levers.

6. A Center loaded Ball joint connector (used on the top of the pedal rod) is NOT a good idea when used for pulling. It IMO, was designed for push systems. The end Can blow out, if one presses too hard when pulling.

Again, the above are my own personal opinions. I do not own one. I love Maurice Anderson. I love Tom Bradshaw and I love Bobbe Seymour. I have no axe to grind with any of them; or their companies. And I don't work for them; nor have I ever worked for any of them.

Note: I have done the same as the above on a number of steel guitars. NO PSG on this planet has ALL pros in my opinion. And none ever will as far as I am concerned. Also, what I consider cons another might just as easily consider pros. In the end, one should assess and evaluate what they like and don't like, and buy accordingly.

If I were in the process of buying a new PSG, I would definitely consider the Millenium and I would look LONG and hard at it. If the company would be willing to consider changing one or more of the "cons" above, I might even end up buying one.

If the above causes others to have disdain for me because I gave my sincere opinion (as I have on other PSG's) so be it. If I am sued for any of the above, you may take anything I own, and I will offer my coat also; as our Lord told me to.

I wish Maurice and his crew much success in this courageous endeavor; and may Jesus richly bless them; and all of you,

carl

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 22 Jun 2004 6:26 pm

Note: This would NOT be a con, IF they had used (or begun using) a space age bushing like Delrin in this hole.

...well, OK! (Ka-Ching!)

...I think Donny's analogy of the Mercedes automobile is a good one....I can appreciate the quality and engineering in such a fine automobile, and yet I offer no apology and suffer no sense of deprivation when I say that I have no desire to spend that much money for what I consider to be primarily a conveyance, when I can get another high quality conveyance which has good value, and pleases me, for a lower price, without becoming simply a commodity buyer...

...so since I'm not in the demographic targeted by the Millenium, I have only a vicarious interest, but an interest nonetheless...Carl, that's about the most honest and balanced assesment I've seen yet..you should work for Consumer's Digest..

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 23 Jun 2004 5:08 am

Right leg knee levers that are not located in the center of the cabinet (rather on the rear arpon), IMO is not a good idea.

Just curious to know why you feel this way, Carl. I'd give anything to have this feature on any of my guitars. Perhaps because I have long legs and the standard configuration forces me to sit closer than I'd like, especially to hit RKR.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jun 2004 6:34 am

Jeff,

IMO, the right knee is decidedly different than the left knee in the way I believe most players sit at a PSG. As an example, take a look at many of the ShowBuds and note LKL. It is installed with an acute angle. Even the crossrod is angled more than just a little bit. Why?

Again, because of the way most players sit regards the PSG. IE, Right leg almost pretty much dead straight on. Left leg attacks at an angle that varies in degree between players. Because of this I feel that the left knee levers should be located closer to the rear of the guitar respect the right knee levers.

Two guitars that I know of anchor their right knee levers on the rear apron; Sierra and now the new Millenium (or at least the ones I saw in the pictures did). I do not recall another PSG that does not have the right knee levers anchored in the middle of the guitar. Yet most of these (if not all) anchor the left knee levers at or very near the left apron. Gotta be a reason.

IMO the reason is stated above.

Some will disagree.

carl

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 23 Jun 2004 7:21 am

Carl,

Thanks for your explanation. I understand and agree with the reasoning behind the LK placement. But, with respect, I didn't find a reason in your RK explanation other than all the other manufacturers doing it. I may have been dense and missed it.

Agreed, the right leg is usually straight. I guess I'm trying to understand why it's a disadvantage, other than preference, to have the RKs at the rear. Most guitars are set up this way and I can see where players are comfortable/familiar with it.

I'd be curious to hear from a builder on this. Perhaps RKs started being constructed this way because it eliminates rodding and obstruction problems on the back neck mechanicals (i.e. you don't need a full-width crossrod).

FWIW, every MSA I've ever played has had the RKs on the rear apron, not just the Millennium.

Not trying to be argumentative here, Carl. I just wanted to understand your thinking.

Jerry Clardy · Post by **Jerry Clardy** » 23 Jun 2004 7:32 am

I believe you can order your kneelevers placed however you want them. The guitar is pretty custom. Just talk to the guys when you order. The buying experience is a lot like buying a tailored suit. They'll let you know what can or can't be done. If you get it wrong, they will work with you until it's right. The Customer Service is really excellent.

This is a lot of guitar for the money if you take into account all the standard items that would have to be added optional on another make. Some of the features are pretty much impossible on a conventional design. e.g., the weight-strength ratio.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 23 Jun 2004 7:35 am

The older MSA's right moving knee levers were not on a cross shaft, they were mounted to the back rail. The newest MSA's have the option of moving the right moving knee levers in, away from the rail. The picture at this link shows the new center mounting: http://www.msapedalsteels.com/html/bottom_view.html

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 23 Jun 2004 8:29 am

Thanks to everyone for all your wonderful comments concerning the MSA Millennium. We at MSA are constantly searching for the best technology to make the Millennium the very best it can be. The input from the guys and gals that play is what drives us to keep making improvements in our guitars.

I would like to make a couple of comments regarding Carl's post.
First of all, thanks Carl for your interest in Millennium and for your comments. As to your cons please allow me to clear up a couple issues for you.

#1. Our pullers are designed with 1 to 5 slots. These slots, along with the geometry of our changer, allow for even pulls on any combination of string changes. We also have pullers with 1 to 5 holes that we use when needed. We have seen no combinations that we were not able to balance. We like the convenience of slots, but all pullers can have holes if customers request them.

#2.We also use a rubber rod stop on each rod to minimize movement in the slots.

#3.The pedal-height adjuster does not rub on the hole that it passes thru. In the photo on our website you are not able to see the ½-inch wide polished-aluminum stop bar that is behind the adjuster. This forces the polished and lubricated stainless steel adjuster to move in a strait line up and down. The ring you see only holds the adjuster in place when the guitar is upside-down in the case.

#4. The bell crank swivel is not as wide as the changer string spacing so there is ample room for placing pulls next to each other with no misalignment.

#5. The R-R knee lever on a double-neck guitar comes standard in the center of the guitar as on most other brands but, we are able to mount knee levers on the rear apron if a customer so desires.

#6. The center-loaded ball joint on the top end of the pedal rod is customized by us to handle the stress of the pulls. I am a hard hitter when it comes to pedals and knee levers and none have failed.

Once again thanks for your observations. Unfortunately, our website is not as up to date as we would like, but we are working to update the site very soon.

Johnny Cox

------------------

Johnny Cox
<A HREF="http://www.johnnyandjoancox.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.johnnyandjoancox.com
</A>
<A HREF="http://http:/www.msapedalsteels.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.msapedalsteels.com
</A>

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 23 Jun 2004 10:36 am

The older MSA's right moving knee levers were not on a cross shaft, they were mounted to the back rail.

Correct, but if they were pulling an E9th change they activated a full-width crossrod.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jun 2004 11:04 am

Thank you Johnny. Also my sincere thanks for not flaming me. Which once again tells me that your playing is second only to your being a gentleman.

I have a question (or two).

If the "adjuster" hole in that piece of aluminum is only to hold the adjuster up when the guitar is upside down, are you saying there is another piece of polished aluminim that the adjuster slides against (by the angular pull of the rod), when the pedal is engaged?

Secondly, IF that is correct, would one piece of metal rubbing against another an astronimacally high number of times (pedal pushin') not cause premature wear of one or both of those parts if there is no space age material like delrin to act as a bushing?

Finally, I must respectfully disagree on "timing" under all situations, when there is only 5 holes in the bellcranks and 3 in the Changer fingers.

IMO, in order to have ALL changes on a given pedal or knee lever to begin AND stop at precisely the same instant (again my opinion) it can not be done with only 5 and 3.

IF it can be done, I would have to see it. And if so, I will sincerely and humbly stand corrected.

Also, I am not aware of a center-loaded ball joint connector that is any where near as strong as a side-loaded connector. Again, IF there is one, and you are using it, then I stand corrected on that "con".

Finally, I went to the link above, and I must say that my "pro" concerning esthetics and craftsmanship in the other post was not all inclusive enough. Because the esthetics, workmanship and craftsmanship I saw in those very sharp detailed photos was the best I have EVER seen on any PSG and that includes the Anapeg.

Maurice and all who have a part in this are to be congratulated on an incredibly superb PSG. Again, If I was in the market for a new steel guitar, I would look even stronger and harder at your Millenium. But I would ask you IF there was a way to use Emmons' 14 hole type bellcranks

May Jesus richly bless you and Joan always,

carl

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 23 Jun 2004 11:22 am

Carl, I would not even dream of flaming you or anyone else that had questions about MSA guitars. Your input is important to us.
As far as your opinion on our pulling train, we choose to use the inline pull as opposed to a side pull. You’ll just have to play it and see for yourself.
Regarding the wear on the pedal adjuster, there is no more friction there than in the changer itself. It simply is not an issue.

------------------

Johnny Cox
<A HREF="http://www.johnnyandjoancox.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.johnnyandjoancox.com
</A>
<A HREF="http://http:/www.msapedalsteels.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.msapedalsteels.com
</A>

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 24 Jun 2004 8:38 am

As an owner of two Millennium steel guitars, With the first being a black S12 5/8 serial number 001 with over a 1000 hours of playing time. I can surely reiterate what Donnie Hinson stated in his post, plus two other items such as removable pickups and the quickest attachment/deattachment pedal bar around.
Also it is the only guitar I ever had that you pull the pickup and hose it down(outside of course) when it gets dirty, chamois it down and your ready to go!
All kidding aside, I purchased a version II Millenium last year wondering how it would compare to my first one although it is setup
Bb6. Well the first one is a fantastic guitar
as they was not much to improve upon, I now have two fantastic guitars.

I am so impressed with the Millennium guitar that I am taking the next step of customizing the finish. Candy yellow with pearl white scalloping and black striping.
Oh yes,it will have the cartoon character "SPEEDY GONZALES" dancing on the front apron. Maybe MSA will show it on their web site.
Thank you MSA as I now spend all my time playing. No tweaking, broken strings, just play, play and play!

P.S. I truly have not experienced one single
problem from the cons mentioned in a
earlier post.

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 24 Jun 2004 9:12 am

I have been reading this thread and deciding if I should post-well here goes-I own a MSA Millenium D-10 8+7 in black twill carbon fiber finish-IMHO it is a great looking,fine sounding,excellent playing instrument that is "state of the art" in pedal steel guitar production-Mine was ordered after I was graciously loaned Ken Drosts' for my inspection-Maurice was quite accomidating during the ordering period-in fact mine was ordered during the initial production run and Reece gave me the option of waiting a little longer to get an M2 model with upgrades if I so decided-which I did-My initial impression of the guitar upon deliverly to me was quite favorable-but I soon discovered that my guitar was consistently detuning an average of 4.5 cents and as much as 6 cents on some strings-my readings of the amount of detuning were taken on the Peterson V-SAM strobe with John Norris of Peterson Electronics verifying the accuracy of my findings-this was NOT acceptable to me and I advised Reece of such-MSA paid for the guitar to be returned to them and the folks there did correct the problem and returned the guitar again to me at no charge-Maurice explained that my guitar apparently had left the factory with the "torque settings" not to specifications-Upon return of my guitar I again checked for detuning and the amount of it had been reduced to consistently about 3 cents-In follow up calls to Johnny Cox he said a detuning of 3 cents was acceptable amount of detuning for a guitar that was meeting factory specifications-And I would agree that many or most makes of pedal steels that I have owned detune approximately 3 cents-My confusion was in the statement made by MSA of the Millenium having "Zero Cabinet Deflection" which I guess I misunderstood would equate to "Zero Detuning"-but this is apparently not the case as my Millenium detunes as much as just about any other wooden bodied guitar except a Fulawka (1 cent) or to my surprise the 30 year old vintage Sho-Bud Pro-II that I just got which detunes only 2 cents-The upshot for me is-the Millenium is great but not perfect-individually we each must be the judge-and with pedal steel guitars you actually have to live with (own) the guitar for awhile before you can make a solid pro or con judgement about it

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Jun 2004 11:30 am

FWIW, I consider 5 cents of deflection on the high E with A+B pressed to be an acceptable amount of drop on any guitar. Most folks can't even hear 3 cents.

I played a Millenium in the showroom at St. Louis last year, and was impressed by the feel of the guitar and the quality of the workmanship. They don't meet my current requirements, but if they start building a keyless D-12 crossover model I will seriously consider buying one.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 Jun 2004 2:42 pm

This forces the polished and lubricated stainless steel adjuster to move in a strait line up and down. The ring you see only holds the adjuster in place when the guitar is upside-down in the case.

For me that is an incredible attention to detail.

And if I could play consistently with in 3 cents of perfect pitch I might actually care about 4.5 cents....

Bill Simmons · Post by **Bill Simmons** » 24 Jun 2004 4:30 pm

At the moment I do not own the new Millenium but I have played them enough to know they are not only a superbly designed steel guitar, but they are a great sounding and playing instrument. There has been much thought put into the design of this fine steel.

I would love to have a black Millenium!!