Why do black Emmons Guitars sound better?

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 12 May 2003 7:20 pm

Apparently it's not just a theory that the particular formulation of blackformica that Emmons Co. used was somewhat thicker, and probably more dense, than the colored formicas, some folks feel that this resulted in a different adhesion/bonding characteristic with the wooden body and a better or different tonal transfer. Sounds ridiculous but many stranger things have affected tonal response- One reso maker microwaves his guitars for a minute or two a day in the belief that it ages them similarly to an older guitar- it's all in the ears...

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Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 12 May 2003 7:50 pm

I really don't know why this theory holds out. I think Herb Steiner sounds terrific on his black Emmons P/P's, and Frank Estes sounds good on his Rosewood Emmons. On the other hand, I don't sound worth a crap on any of mine. So I guess it's all your taste for tone and what you think sounds good. NR

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 12 May 2003 8:43 pm

Obviously a black fungus has infiltrated the web and contorted this sight. Do black PSG's sound better? Of course they do...they also look better with tuxedo's, hypnotise the listener, and make's love making ten times better. (i've had no complaints from my wife since I bought my big black beauty)
Hey BOB you're right a black JCH is a tone god!!!! and the more gadgets you have the better(BLACK JCH D-10 NINE AND EIGHT)
OK someone has to say it might as well be the new guy! "Once you go Black you'll never go back. ( i need sleep.. night all!!!)
Scott

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 13 May 2003 1:04 am

Black's just have more Soul

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Steel what?

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 13 May 2003 4:00 am

What color was the Blade?

Larry Behm

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 13 May 2003 4:50 am

I think the Blade is Rosewood but the black thing got started from the 77 convention with BE I believe. My last two Emmons were black and currently I'm playing a 66 black bolt-on 8/8. There's just something about that sleek look the black guitars have.

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 13 May 2003 4:51 am

Larry,
The Blade was a Rosewood Emmons. And to my knowledge Buddy still has it at his house.
Nick

Frank Estes · Post by **Frank Estes** » 13 May 2003 6:32 am

My first Emmons push-pull was a 1980 black one that sounded great (Butterfly Kluson, Legrande pedals, 9+4). The 78 Rosewood I currently have has everything (Butterfly, Narrow cast pedals, 8+7) I want except for the kind of pickups that the 1980 had (probably 18.5K). I am doing something about that as I get the single-coils re-wound to Sweeney's specs!

It is odd, sometimes the 705 (E9) sounds pretty good and most other times it is just too thin.

I think black guitars look real sharp, but I have always liked the Rosewood Mica.

BTW, Nick, thank you for the encouraging comment. Now I will have to do some serious woodshedding to live up to it!
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Frank Estes - 1978 Emmons D-10 8+7 #2441D

[This message was edited by Frank Estes on 13 May 2003 at 07:35 AM.]

Chance Wilson · Post by **Chance Wilson** » 13 May 2003 7:14 am

I ordered a bunch of samples from Formica, Nevemar & WilsonArt. The pigment layer in the old Mica that Emmons used is thicker. I got different finishes & put them to the scratch test. On the new one's-especially gloss it's easy to scratch through the color layer. I think Matte is the best for durability, but the gloss ones sure are pretty. The other textured finishes are just weird. I have an old Emmons catalog that says "Highly polished mica glass finishes are not recommended since they show off scratches". What's everyone's take on gloss/matte black? (& their sound)

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 13 May 2003 7:17 am

The theory i speak of is that certain mica's are thinner,making them "less" dense and at least aid in the resonation of the guitar.Black and RoseWood happen to be two of them. It would depend on your supplier but in helping Jimmie at JCH,i discovered that it's nothing for the thickness to vary a few thousandth's of an inch. Some cases,5-10 and others,20-30. Keep in mind that a sheet of paper is approximately 5 thousandth's of an inch,so were not talking major differences but it's enough when your talking about a musical instrument. Maybe some of the other experienced instrument makers out there can offer a little more on this!

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 13 May 2003 11:29 am

The black mica on the '60s and I think very early '70 Emmons guitars was much thicker than what is available now. I would very much like to find enough of the old thick black to cover a D10. The aluminum trim strips were thicker than what is used now so as to be flush with the mica.
Jerry

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 13 May 2003 7:59 pm

BULL! Some of the best sounding Emmons Push-Pull guitars don't have any formica on them at all. I know one made of mahogany that is incredible. I sold Tommy White a "White" P-P that was my own personal guitar that had formally belonged to Weldon and then Hank Corwin, had wood necks, Sounded incredible.

Color, mica, necks, makes no difference. A P-P is going to sound great.
I don't really think any of you actually believe this color thing anyway, I hope.

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 14 May 2003 4:50 am

Bobbe,
you know me better than that! I'm not buying into the actual color. What i said was the more decorative colors,generally are thicker.....and it is possible that that plays a small part in how the guitar sounds. There are many things that go into making a guitar sound good,as you know! Give me more credit than that!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 14 May 2003 6:22 am

If it was found out that a pink steel sounds the best, who would buy one?

What a crap!But I love this discussion, comes back every now and then

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[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 14 May 2003 at 07:33 AM.]

Tommy Minniear · Post by **Tommy Minniear** » 14 May 2003 9:13 am

Somebody over on Bobbe's Forum stated they were thinking about getting a black and red formica steel: for tone and speed. Sounds like Buck's JCH.

Good choice, Buck!

Personaly, I don't think a "black" Emmons sounds good because of the color. The thickness of the formica is an entertaining thought. Maybe "yes" - maybe "no". I never played a solo and when I finished thought: "That would have sounded a lot better on a "black" Emmons. Yes, if Buddy "E" or "C", Buck Reid, Bobbe, Jimmie, John Hughey, Weldon, etc. had been playing it: it would have! Yet, the thought hangs with me that I have seen all the great players use various colored: formica and lacquer guitars(and brands). Now, whats that tell ya? (gettin' dizzy, yet?)

Tommy Minniear

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 14 May 2003 3:00 pm

The same reason Blonde Telecasters sound best.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 14 May 2003 4:48 pm

Buck, you've always had good credit with me, glad to hear from you, you are mighty!
Bobbe!

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 15 May 2003 8:54 pm

Here's my too sense: I've got 2 '74 fatback P/P's, one black and one rosewood, just a few serial numbers apart, and they both sound exactly the same, at least when I'm having a good night. On another note, I did an album using a mahogany P/P that Bobbe may have mentioned earlier. Later, I did an album for the singer's sister, using the black P/P, (same studio) and she asked me why I sounded better on her brother's album.

C#

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 May 2003 3:19 am

It could be just psychosomatic.
It is a black steel and the best guys play on them.
So you MUST play better to live up to the guitars rep.
Maybe lesser players don't buy them because they are scared off being compared to the legends, so only great players play black steels.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 16 May 2003 9:41 am

If it was found out that a pink steel sounds the best, who would buy one?

I played a pink Emmons bolt-on one night at Tootsie's, owned by Carco Clave'. Used to belong to Dolores Hancock. Sounded pretty darn good to me, though I had to shake the feeling I was sitting behind a 1950's era kitchen table.

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Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 16 May 2003 11:40 am

actually, sunburst telecasters sound the best

and rosewood mica push pulls sound the best.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 16 May 2003 6:16 pm

The "Pink guitar" Herb mentioned, belonged to Delores, then Pat Seivers, I bought it from Pat just because of it's great tone. Then I sold it to Carlos Claveria (Carco). It is without a doubt the best sounding "bolt on" I have ever heard, although I know there are many great ones. So, "Pink might be the best" sounding color after all!!

All this is silly I know, but it just shows to go ya', color is in the ear of the beholder. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 16 May 2003 at 07:18 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 16 May 2003 8:09 pm

Bobbe,
That pink guitar "was" the best sounding bolt-on you've heard. The last time I seen that guitar somebody had sat on it or it had been in a bad fight and the body was badly broken. The pedals would stick when you stepped on them, just a mess. I offered to buy the guitar for the parts and have a new body built. It darn sure wouldn't be pink! And really now, I don't think any of us here are serious about the black guitar thing or could I sell you this 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58 ,59 automobile with only one tail fin and three headlights?

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 17 May 2003 4:36 am

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Rick McDuffie
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Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 17 May 2003 10:16 am

Frank wrote.
(That pink guitar):

(The last time I seen that guitar somebody had sat on it or it had been in a bad fight and the body was badly broken.

Goes to show guys should never should play Pink guitars in bars especially in the south.

Wonder what the guy looked like after the fight?