What does the term 'around the horn' mean to you (musically)

[Chris Gabriel]

Sorry, I haven't heard this term before now.

[Jim Pitman]

Ron thank you. (I think that's a compliment). I'm trying to think where did a guy from Arizona hear me play?
Chris, geeez you are awfullly young to be on this forum. No wonder you've never heard "around the horn" he said with his tongue in his cheek.
Yes...it's quite possibly an old geezer term.
Glad to see some youg folks are interested (assuming your avitar is representative)

[CrowBear Schmitt]

most musical slang/terms come from the black kats playin' jazz back in the 20s & 30s
a lot of them are dead & gone so uh uh be some old geezers left after all

[Jack Aldrich]

In baseball, it means throwing the ball from catcher to 3rd, then 2nd then 1st base and back to the catcher, who tosses it to the pitcher ,or the other way. It's part of a warm up at the start of an inning and after a double play. I've heard it musically as going through the circle of fifths, like the bridge of "I Got Rhythm".

[Rick Nicklas]

The first time I was introduced to this term was from a Belly Dancer in West Pittsburg, California. I have to tell you that her version was much more memorable than any I have read here. Some will say this has nothing to do with music but I must say the percussion section was definately a big factor.

[Jim Pitman]

Rick are you confusing the term "around the horn" with "around the world"?
Ah but yes, your conitation stunts the musical.
Seriously, it's interesting how many references there are to that phrase, each appropriate within the relatively small group of like interested people.

[Bo Legg]

Dave is right.
For my 2 cents:
Regarding the given circumstances this is without a doubt an inappropriate and ambiguous application of an old cliché put forth by band leaders who are not knowledgeable enough in music/theory to communicate their musical ideas intelligently.

[Stuart Legg]

Bo you could have said all that by saying "it’s the band leader’s BS to cover up the fact he don’t know S"

[Jim Bates]

Sounds like same thing as a turn-around for intros or instrumental break. Another, would be to play a long instrumental break -(keep em dancing) verse and chorus.

Thanx,
Jim

[b0b]

I've never known it to mean anything other than traversing the circle of fifths back to the tonic. Seriously, are you folks just guessing, or do people actually use the phrase with different meanings?

http://dobrodojo.blogspot.com/2012/11/t ... -5ths.html

[Steve English]

I've never known it to mean anything other than traversing the circle of fifths back to the tonic. Seriously, are you folks just guessing, or do people actually use the phrase with different meanings?

So b0b, with all due respect, How did you come to name your song "Round the Horn" with the chord progressions you used?

D-G-C-A-D-B-E-A-D

Now if you had played it backwards........

[Dave Mudgett]

Seriously, b0b - I'm not makin' this up. I've heard the phrase 'around the horn' used in a lot of contexts (not just music), and in music in a bunch of different ways. I know older bluegrass and country guys who will say something like, "OK, boys, let's take it around the horn." or sometimes they'll more specifically say "... around the horn again.", which generally means in this context to simply keep it going (maybe one more round, maybe twice, maybe x times, maybe until alerted using a visual cue) for whatever reason - they like what's going on, they're having fun, to keep the dancers going, or whatever the hell reason they want. I assure you, they are NOT talking about doing circles of 4ths, 5ths, jazz-inflected ii/Vs to the tonic, or anything like that.

This phrase is a shorthand convention, and it means different things to different people - the evidence is before you - we've had several different people even here state different usages. What makes you think they're making it up?

This type of shorthand convention usage is pretty typical in a lot of fields. Scientists, engineers, and mathematicians use shorthand notational or phraseological conventions all the time, and the semantics depends strictly on the context of use. Generally, people working in different specialized areas have their own specific shorthand semantics codified - to work in that specialty area, you need to read a bunch of papers to understand their specific conventions because different groups will use the exact same notation or phrase to denote very different things. Sometimes workers in different specialties will get snarky about the superiority of their usage, but for the most part, it is generally accepted that convenient shorthands can reasonably be applied in different ways in different specialty areas.

[b0b]

I've never known it to mean anything other than traversing the circle of fifths back to the tonic. Seriously, are you folks just guessing, or do people actually use the phrase with different meanings?

So b0b, with all due respect, How did you come to name your song "Round the Horn" with the chord progressions you used?

D-G-C-A-D-B-E-A-D

Now if you had played it backwards........

B E A D walks the circle of fifths back to D.

Dave, I've just never heard it in any other context, I guess. I always thought it was common bandstand terminology for those Dixieland-type progressions. That's how everyone around here uses it.

[Steve English]

First of all, let me apologize to those to all of those who have a better grip on music theory than I, which would be most of you...

When i look at the circle of fifths chart, the arrow at the top indicates the fifths travel clockwise:



I read the V of B as being F#, the V of E as being B, etc.....

Your chord progression travels from a B chord to an E chord, which to me is traveling from a I chord to a IV chord....same applies to the E to A, and A to D.

If, by the chart, you are traveling in a counter-clockwise direction, the chords would fall in a "circle of fourths" walking back to the D. And the beginning chords in your progression would also reflect the circle of fourths also.

In the key of G, the B-E-A-D is the III-VI-II-V which gives credence to the previous comments by BH, BB, and Jim C. However, why isn't this called a circle of fourths?

At this point, it's very easy for me to see where there's an opportunity for confusion.

I'm glad in have my ears to fall back on when deciphering what's being played on stage. It's much easier for me to just lay out a for a verse and listen to what's being played than to reverse engineer theory and nomenclature.

ps: I enjoyed the "Round the Horn" composition! I liked the Jerry Garcia style in some of the licks played.

Dave, I agree....

[b0b]

The basic concept is called the Circle of Fifths. Traversing it backwards (counter-clockwise) is called "going around the horn".

[Brint Hannay]

In the key of G, the B-E-A-D is the III-VI-II-V which gives credence to the previous comments by BH, BB, and Jim C. However, why isn't this called a circle of fourths?

It's a matter of whether you think of the movement from root to root as going up or down. From B, E is up a fourth or down a fifth.

To my way of thinking, the inclusion in your circle chart of "4th" and "5th" with arrows pointing in opposite directions is misleading, as it ignores the ambiguity above.

FWIW, I've always heard the circle referred to as the Circle of Fifths.

[Steve English]

Thanks b0b and Brint

b0b, your explanation is very concise and easy to grasp And, it certainly incorporates the difficulty in the voyage that Dave related to.

I wish it had come up earlier in the thread.

I think my work's done here.....now, back to being retired.

[Ron Pruter]

Jim Pitman. JP, I meant Jim Cohen, but you're probably good also.RP

[Mark van Allen]

I'm with b0b (last post) on this one. I believe it meant exactly that- the "hard way", or backwards, around the circle of 5ths- for many players for years. A reference to the sailing route around South Africa.
One of the problems with "common knowledge" is that it loses focus traveling through many ears and venues.
I wish I had a buck for every time I've heard "Aw, it's just a 1-4-5, and the 'out chord' is F" from someone who was sure they understood the number system.
We all like to use the slang of the club we're in... even if we pick it up 3rd, 4th or 5th hand.

[Franklin]

3 6 2 5

[Dennis Russell]

If someone says to me, "around the horn," or "around the world," I would assume that they mean play the "dominant of the dominant of the dominant of the dominant, and so on" until you get back to tonic of the original key. The best example of this is the middle-eight section of rhythm changes (for those not familiar with this term, it means the chord changes to "I Got Rhythm", a chord progression that also forms the basis for many other songs), which, as many responders to this post have pointed out, wind up being III7, VI7, II7, V7 of the original key.
It wouldn't be incorrect to refer to it as a circle of 4ths, since the next chord in the sequence is the IV chord of the previous chord.
It wouldn't be incorrect for it to be referred to as a circle of 5ths, however, and perhaps it would be more correct to call it a circle of 5ths, because you are playing the V of the V of the V of the V. Each chord in the progression is the dominant of the next chord in the sequence.
I taught songwriting and popular music theory at college level for many years. I always told my students that there may be different correct answers for certain music behaviors and that you need to learn the vocabulary of the particular musicians that you are playing with on any given gig.
As this thread proves, different definitions for different folks. Thanks to a thread like this, the original poster can now be prepared for the different meanings of this common musical phrase and next time someone says it, he can clarify by asking: A)"Do you mean V of V of V of V?" or B)"Do you mean to run through the form again?" or C)"Do you mean we're gonna get in a boat and sail around Cape Horn?'
If the answer is C, make sure to ask for a lot more money on the gig.

[Clete Ritta]

And, confusingly enough, I've been told the most common example is playing the circle of fifths, used in the same manner as Jim's example of the circle of fourths...I had to wonder if they meant going counter-clockwise in the circle of fifths, which would be fourths??

Its not confusing at all. They are both correct. It merely depends on which hemisphere you are playing in. Everyone knows that "around the horn" means cycle of fifths in the southern hemisphere and cycle of fourths in the northern hemisphere. Just like water spirals in the drain.

[Stewart Thompson]

Bob Hoffnar is absolutely correct...The first time I saw or heard the term used was in a Doug Jernigan steel guitar book, referring to the VI II V I progression.

[Mark van Allen]

Just in case anyone else following along is getting lost in the numbers... we're mostly all talking about the same thing. The intervallic distances in any key between the 3 and 6, 6 and 2, 2 and 5, and 5 and 1 are all fourths. Or backwards around the cycle of fifths.

[Jim Bates]

What I have learned in all this discussion is to NEVER use this term in a band unless you have a detailed briefing before the gig on what it means and how to play it. (Good luck with that!)

(Different strokes for different folks or different strings for different things!)

Thanx,
Jim