Playing live without an amp

Noel Welsh · Post by **Noel Welsh** » 27 Dec 2012 8:28 pm

The band I am working with now has no amps or monitors on stage so
I too had to stop using my amp and go direct. I tried the Pod XT and the
X3Pro but didn't like it I am now using my IPad with the Amplitube
Fender App. I go from my steel directly to the steel guitar black box
and from there into the IPad. I use a shure in ear monitor system
with shure 535 iem which gives studio quality sound on stage. Luckily
the band has an awesome PA system and a good sound man and the steel sounds great
out front also. We also have an onstage monitor board and I have complete
control over every mic and instrument on stage using my IPad.
This is done with an App called XI Control and a wireless connection.
Going from an amp to direct without an amp takes some work to
get it right but once you do its really great

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 27 Dec 2012 9:01 pm

Wow Noel!! You just mentioned a whole bunch of equipment, most of which I've never heard of. That's exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. Now I've got a lot more things to research. Thank goodness for the internet.

Noel Welsh · Post by **Noel Welsh** » 27 Dec 2012 9:24 pm

Yea, the Internet and technology we have now is great. Makes you wonder how we ever got by without it. Hope you find what your looking for. Send me a message or email anytime. I'm not an expert at this stuff but will be glad to help when I can

Philip Mitrakos · Post by **Philip Mitrakos** » 31 Dec 2012 10:53 am

I'm all about sound reinforcement..
And like all of us high tech rednecks,I've tried it all ..and I have it all...here is my simple setup for direct input to PA system... via low Z transformer
one tone knob on my pedal steel guitar

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 31 Dec 2012 11:48 am

Noel Welsh wrote:I am now using my IPad with the Amplitube Fender App. I go from my steel directly to the steel guitar black box and from there into the IPad.

.....wave of the future: Converting from "Amps to Apps" ? ? ?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 31 Dec 2012 11:49 am

Philip: I appreciate your post, but I can't understand how your set-up works from the picture. Can you describe the signal path from the steel to the PA. Also, what is this low Z transformer with the tone knob? Is that some sort of preamp? Thanks. Paul

Philip Mitrakos · Post by **Philip Mitrakos** » 31 Dec 2012 1:39 pm

Straight out of the pedal steel into the Steel Guitar Black Box..into the telonics volume pedal ...into the RV-7 Reverb..into the Line matching transformer...and just a single tone knob on the pedal steel...

Steve Ahola · Post by **Steve Ahola** » 31 Dec 2012 9:05 pm

Olli Haavisto wrote:The Blonde can be played clean if the extra gain needed is applied later in the chain,at the mixer input. I have played dozens of gigs with it and it is definitely not a distortion device only. You just have to experiment with it and find the right settings.

Another vote for the Sansamp Blonde! With all of the digital modeling out there it is really nice that one company is using analog circuits to recreate different brands of tube amps; they make pedals that emulate Marshall, Vox and Mesa Boogie amps, too, but I think that those would not be as useful as the Blonde for steel guitar.

Unlike some of the Sansamp pedals there is no balanced output and it does not put out a line level signal so you do want to go into a DI if your mixer does not have a high impedance input for a guitar pickup. I'd probably use a small amp as a stage monitor with the DI signal going to the PA.

Steve Ahola
(BTW my grandparents were all from Finland)

Steve Ahola · Post by **Steve Ahola** » 31 Dec 2012 9:32 pm

I don't have a real Sansamp Blonde pedal- I have the Joyo American Sound pedal which is a $40 Chinese clone of the Blonde. There is a detailed analysis of both the Sansamp Character pedals and the Joyo clones over at FreeStompBoxes.org:

http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6571

One difference between the Joyo and the Sansamp is that the Chinese clones use a less expensive IC than the Sansamps. It also seems like the taper on some of the controls isn't the same so you might have to turn some of the controls higher or lower than what Sansamp suggests for their Blonde pedals.

One thing interesting about the Sansamp Character series is that they all use basically the same design with only a handful of resistors and capacitors that vary from pedal to pedal.

In comparing the Sansamp Character pedals to earlier Sansamp pedals there is an added control- the Character control which is a second midrange control that is located ahead of the gain, overdrive and EQ stages; it shapes the signal going into that circuitry while the EQ shapes the signal at the end of the chain.

If anybody is interested in building a simplified version of the Blonde pedal here is a design by one of the contributors to the thread linked above.

Steve Ahola

P.S. Sansamp has come out with Version 2 models of their Character pedals which include a switch to bypass the cabinet simulator circuitry, which can give you a cleaner signal going into an amp. So it would be a good idea to make sure which version you'd be getting if you were to buy one used.

BTW I got all 4 of the Joyo clone pedals and am very impressed with them for regular guitar. One drawback is that they are not full bypass as advertised and they do suck tone noticeably if you plug in several of the pedals together. (I may add full bypass toggle switches to them so that I can keep them mounted on their own pedal board without patching them in and out.) Their AC Tone and British Sound pedals work well with rock lap steel- they emulate the Vox and Marshall amps.

I would recommend dealing with the seller on Amazon rather than ordering them direct from China (the price is the same- $40.)

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 1 Jan 2013 7:03 am

Paul Sutherland wrote: Do you find that the Blonde doesn't give a strong enough signal to your powered speaker to give all the volume needed?

Just an update: I have recently realized that the Blonde has ALOT more gain than I previously thought.
When first playing thru it, I set the EQ controls at around 12 o'clock and then shaped my tone from there.
What I have found now is having those set at the half way mark drastically cuts back the signal output.
So, if I start with them nearly full and then back off on which ever is predominant, the gain is plenty enough to drive
either of my powered cabinets without any additional assistance.
Now that I see the schematic that Steve posted, this "splains" it. The EQ controls are at the end of the signal chain!
I have the level up full and the drive around 10-11 o'clock (if I want clean signal only).

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 1 Jan 2013 8:27 am

Thanks for the info, Jay.
I guess that means that the EQ doesn`t affect the overdrive or lack of too much.
I have to experiment with that. Thanks...

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 1 Jan 2013 9:01 am

Olli Haavisto wrote:Thanks for the info, Jay.
I guess that means that the EQ doesn`t affect the overdrive....

Right...and the contour doesn't either.
If I have my Telonics volume pedal up all the way, I don't get any overdrive at all until the drive control approaches 12 o'clock.

Steve Ahola · Post by **Steve Ahola** » 1 Jan 2013 6:25 pm

Jay Ganz wrote:Now that I see the schematic that Steve posted, this "splains" it. The EQ controls are at the end of the signal chain!

Do you have the newer Version 2 Blonde pedal- the one with the switch to bypass the cabinet simulator? I have heard that you can get a much cleaner sound with the cabsim bypassed.

Here is a link to a user-drawn schematic for the Version 1 Blonde pedal (the other drawing was just a project that someone came up with inspired by the Blonde design incorporating the Character control.) I have to say that the Sansamp design is a real work of art, not that I have the foggiest idea how it works...

https://www.box.com/s/jf63evk6l6yi3xoetmyt

Steve Ahola

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 1 Jan 2013 7:32 pm

Hey Steve,
Thanks for that schematic. I really appreciate it!
If you notice, the EQ controls are after the level control. I do have the newer version 2.
I wouldn't say bypassing the simulator is any cleaner, just tonally different. Turning it on sure comes in handy for recording (or going direct).
I've used it both ways when going into a powered speaker cabinet. When it's bypassed, I have to boost up the high end a bit to compensate.

Boo Bernstein · Post by **Boo Bernstein** » 2 Jan 2013 4:43 pm

I perform quite a bit in Mexico where the backline is always questionable! For a long time, I tried to make the amps work -- I finally realized that going direct to the board was the only real option. Because these are fly dates, I also had to find a simple and lightweight solution. I sometime use a POD XT, which works just fine. The rig I enjoy the most is a mini pedalboard I created using an ETHOS Overdrive pedal as the pre-amp. This is a really beautiful little unit -- very warm sounding. Here's a photo of my rig. FYI, I also use in-ear monitors so I don't have to count on the sound man to get a decent wedge mix to hear myself.

Craig Schwartz · Post by **Craig Schwartz** » 3 Jan 2013 7:40 am

Philip Mitrakos wrote:Straight out of the pedal steel into the Steel Guitar Black Box..into the telonics volume pedal ...into the RV-7 Reverb..into the Line matching transformer...and just a single tone knob on the pedal steel...

Phil, I have a line x-former that =`s INPUT 500 OHM TO OUTPUT 50 K OHM , It doesnt work at all , What specs do you use for the line X-former.

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 3 Jan 2013 9:00 pm

I know they're kinda passe around here now, but I sprung for a used Pod XT and bought Tommy Dodd's preset cd and am very satisfied with in-ear and FOH sound. So are the sound techs I've worked with. Just make sure you use TRS out for the best sound.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 7 Jan 2013 2:14 pm

I wired all the outputs on my rack box to external plugging - and run out of my Telonics Preamp balanced outs to the desk - stereo wet/dry .. I can also plug in both my BW 1501's for monitors (or just one) as well which gives me a bit more flexibility. Mostly the concert shows I do I use my speakers as well as the Direct outs, but I have the ability to do either.

I also run my Beard MA6/Fishman Aura through the 2nd channel on my Telonics Pre !

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 2 Feb 2013 5:33 pm

Well I actually played direct for an entire gig last night. And I have to do it again tonight and tomorrow afternoon. Seems both my Session 400s don't want to work right now, so I had no choice but to play direct.

I went from the steel to a Tech 21 Blonde pedal, then into a Boss DM2, then to the volume pedal, then into a Fishman Loudbox 100, and then line out to the house. My only monitor was the Loudbox; no wedge for me.

The first set my steel was nothing but highs and sounded pretty terrible to me, but knowledgeable people in the audience said the steel sounded good out front. Second and third sets were much better as I played a bunch with the knobs on the Blonde. I turned the Drive all the way off, and added more Character than I first thought was prudent. Also backed down the treble to about 11 oclock.

Bottom line, the Blonde pedal works pretty good as an interface to play direct, but I prefer the sound of a real steel amp.

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 3 Feb 2013 7:09 am

Paul Sutherland wrote: I went from the steel to a Tech 21 Blonde pedal, then into a Boss DM2, then to the volume pedal, then into a Fishman Loudbox 100,
and then line out to the house. My only monitor was the Loudbox; no wedge for me.

Yeah...in a case like that you can have a $1000 preamp and it ain't gonna sound good to you on stage.
You're at the mercy of the Fishman. The folks out front said you sounded good and that's what counts.
It's definitely tricky unless you have a sound crew that you're familiar with.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 15 Apr 2013 8:54 am

Good thread men...I been Amp-less for 10 years now, and had great luck with the Pod XT, but i do miss a NV 400 for that character sometimes, there is a Depth that can't be found it seems even though i'm playing back through a 1000W Crown powered JBL Wedge.

I did the IN ears for 5 years, but they had to go!

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 22 May 2013 9:23 am

I bought a Fender Mustang I.... originally for a light weight practice amp.... then I cut out the baffle board, and replaced the stock 8" speaker with a Celestion 10" speaker.... and put 2 three inch ports into the enclosed back (these were actually PVC shower drains from home depot.. about $2.00 each).

With the USB connection, and the Fender "Fuse" programable FX software (which you then save to channels on board the amp)... and using a Heil DM 30 mic .... this is now my amp of choice for all but outdoor gigs that don't offer good monitors.

This little 20 watt amp, with the celestion speaker just kicks butt... and weighs about 18 lbs.

Cost: $ 90 for the amp, and $60 for the speaker.

I'm cutting out a lot of the travel gigs.. and I still have a whole room of high powered amps for the few that do come up, so this "fix" works great for me... and folks out front just love the sound... what's not to like

It also helps to encourage low volume on stage by the rest of the band

Noel Welsh · Post by **Noel Welsh** » 22 May 2013 4:28 pm

I have been playing direct now for a few years and have tried quite a few different units including the pod xt and x3pro. I recently purchased Brad Sarno's V8 preamp and it is the ultimate in playing direct and with an amp. It has an XLR out for going direct to the board but also has a 1/4 inch jack out for going to an amp . It sounds killer either way. I also just
got in a Benado Steel Dream for effects and will trying it out soon

Stephen Cowell · Post by **Stephen Cowell** » 22 May 2013 10:16 pm

Craig Schwartz wrote: Phil, I have a line x-former that =`s INPUT 500 OHM TO OUTPUT 50 K OHM , It doesnt work at all , What specs do you use for the line X-former.

You have it backwards... input to the 50K side, output from the 600ohm side. A line transformer is a two-way device, you can run it either way.

Josh Yenne · Post by **Josh Yenne** » 22 May 2013 10:36 pm

Okay I understand if you fly MAYBE having to go without an amp.. but why would you want to otherwise?

I mean I understand the weight of an amp kinda being a hassle but...? I just don't get it... I've played lots of backlined gigs and you can pretty much always score at least a reissue Deluxe... the most ubiquitious amp in the world....

then again I personally hate Pods and digital sounds for pretty much all guitars, steel and otherwise....

Jon you mentioned having to play without an amp a lot? Not trying to be snarky here.. I really am interested in when you would have to do that? I have never been in a situation where I couldn't have an amp... maybe I've just been lucky over the years... I've played some pretty crappy amps but I cant imagine having something as bad as having to go direct... and with such a small amount of control over my own sound...

actually one time I did have to go direct on a 6 string gig.. but I did have some pedals in front to give it a bit of life.. but it was awful.