Attention all traditional country lovers

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Jul 2011 10:49 am

... Your years of thinking Pedal Steel guitar as a Country instrument are over.
Only other types of music may be played on them, Reggae,...

fwiw, I find it to be a true joy to play along with my faves on Bob Marleys "Legend" album.
http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Best-Marle ... B0000669JL

I think Johnny Cash covered Redemtion Song towards the end there.

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 3 Jul 2011 11:47 am

I might as well help finish the horse bone paté. I've heard MORE than my fair share of whining about this subject. Nobody ever contributes a new idea to this tired discussion. Let me be the ten thousandth member to add to the "whine list" and not contribute anything worthwhile, either (Besides, it's over 100 degrees here and you can't do anything outside in this #*@&! heat.).

When you're trying to play a REAL rock song in the vein of a REAL rock/metal band like Guns 'N Roses, Steel Panther, or Korn, why is it that ALL of you pedal steel guys have to play your unimaginative E9th style with your cliché E9th licks and your cliché E9th pedal steel tone/timbre??? Do us all a favor and throw away those damned A & B pedals! YOU'RE KILLING US!!!

And another thing - haven't any of you people heard of signal processors (that's a one-a-them high-fallutin' words for "effects boxes")? And QUIT CALLING IT A "FUZZ TONE"!!!

It's the 20th Century, guys. Google it.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 3 Jul 2011 12:42 pm

And QUIT CALLING IT A "FUZZ TONE"!!!

Matt, a rose by any other name, etc.….

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Jul 2011 12:59 pm

Matt Rhodes wrote:

When you're trying to play a REAL rock song in the vein of a REAL rock/metal band like Guns 'N Roses, Steel Panther, or Korn, why is it that ALL of you pedal steel guys have to play your unimaginative E9th style with your cliché E9th licks and your cliché E9th pedal steel tone/timbre??? Do us all a favor and throw away those damned A & B pedals!

I'd say, rather than throw them away, learn how to correctly use them to play rock.

My apologies to everybody who is tired of this video, but it is relevant to this discussion. I used all 3 pedals on this tune. You can only hear me pumping the A and C pedals at different times, but not the B pedal. I used the B pedal too, but only to get the open A note on the G# strings.

The E9 tuning works great for playing rock. You just have to learn how.

Here's the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I

BTW, I play a U-12, with E9 changes on the B6 bass strings. In this case, the low B string is dropped to A, and you can see how I used it.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 3 Jul 2011 1:11 pm

and while you're at it, grow some hair.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jul 2011 1:13 pm

He could use that for advertising space! 8^)

Sorry Mike!

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 3 Jul 2011 1:45 pm

Great stuff Mike! I am very familiar with that tune (I used to hang out with Nick Gravenites on my visits to San Francisco and heard John Cipollina tear it up on it with him on slide guitar many times) But don't forget, that additional low end on your tuning does make a difference when playing blues and rock. It cannot be duplicated on a standard 10-string E9, which seems to be what most players have got. I always find there is something missing on that tuning. I really believe that the 12-string (extended) E9 should become standard.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 3 Jul 2011 1:49 pm

Joerg Hennig wrote:I really believe that the 12-string (extended) E9 should become standard.

I agree that pedal steel should at least have the range of a standard guitar for rock, but 12 strings are pretty intimidating for most players. It's not hard to come up with a 10-string copedent that includes the low E note.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jul 2011 1:53 pm

You can get the low root if you put the D on a pull from the B string, like on my Uni. Thinkin' about doin' that on one of my Buds. I really miss that low note.

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 3 Jul 2011 2:07 pm

b0b and John, I've already tried that but it just didn't work for me. I found myself wanting the in-between note (low G# with a change to A) as well, and then I'm too used to the D note and it felt very uncomfortable to have to push a lever to get it. (I'm probably not a good candidate for the universal tuning) So I eventually changed it back to standard, but my next steel will most likely have to be a 12 string. (Not too intimidating for me, I've already had one years ago).
But I also play the C6 a lot, I think there is a lot of potential in that tuning for blues and rock playing, especially if you spice it up with some extra changes to turn it more into a 7th tuning. I wouldn't want to be without those anymore.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Jul 2011 2:10 pm

John Billings wrote:You can get the low root if you put the D on a pull from the B string, like on my Uni. Thinkin' about doin' that on one of my Buds. I really miss that low note.

I get the D note by dropping the 8th string.

I agree with b0b that 12 strings are better if you're going to play rock, but we disagree on whether to have the D note on a separate string and have the low E on the 12th string, or have a universal tuning and eliminate the D string, and have the note on a knee ever.

One thing we agree on though, is that the D note is very important, not just as the 7 of the E chord, but also as a root for various chords.

Everything is a trade off. There are undoubtedly things that can be done only by having the note on a separate string. On the other hand, I have all that wonderful bass, and the B6 tuning, even though I don't know how to play it.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Jul 2011 2:12 pm

b0b wrote:and while you're at it, grow some hair.

God made only a few perfect heads. He put hair on the rest to cover up his mistakes.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jul 2011 2:20 pm

Yeah, Mike! Couple different ways to get the D. I'm just used to the lever on my Kline Uni raisin' the B. I used to play Hughey's version of "I'm Not Lisa" on my Kline, and ya gotta have that low root for that tune, which I abdo-lutey hated until I heard John play it. I switched to the Kline Uni just to get those low notes, which I feel you really need in a small band. I'm not much of a 6th player. I tend to use bar slants when I play Western Swing. Ain't got a Jazz bone in my body!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 3 Jul 2011 3:13 pm

I'm getting the low E with just 8 strings. The standard 10-string C6th goes much lower. I don't believe that anyone needs 12 strings to play rock.
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Imagine P3+LKV on the above. E-B-E on the low strings. There are a lot of ways to do this. Sneaky Pete had the range with just 8 strings, too.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jul 2011 3:23 pm

Well,,, sure, b0b! There's lots of ways to do it with different tunings,,, but I thought we were pretty much discussing E9th. My '67 Bud S-10, 6&2 is currently in a tuning based on bottleneck Low G tuning. I keep screwin' around with the pedals and levers, but it's great for Rock, and awesome for Blues. But it's not based on E9th.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 3 Jul 2011 4:29 pm

Why can't we love traditional country music and rock, blues, gospel, sacred, swing, jazz, classical or whatever? The way I see it, it's the selfish attitudes of those who would see the steel guitar stuck in 60's country music that's the problem. Some even to the point of saying they'd rather see the instrument die first. Yeah, the statements are here on this forum. I've read 'em.

It's that mentality that's hurtful and it's disrespectful and downright insulting to those who play other styles of music on the steel guitar.

A recent thread here about Robert Randolph stated that he could play some country licks....well so what? He doesn't need to do that to validate him as a steel guitarist.

If you want to only play traditional country music on your steel guitar, go for it with blessing. Now give the rest of us that want to do more than that the same consideration if you please.

As to the steel guitar sound as it relates to rock, yeah it's different. Different way of playing and sounding. Now, having stated that, I play somewhat regularly with some open minded musicians who play a wide variety of music including a lot of classic rock as well as country, country rock etc.

There are 2 guitar players. They are generous to let me handle all the slide work, whether on pedal steel, 6 string, or lap.

Let's say we're jamming on a rock tune, pick one, after the 2 guitar players have each taken a turn, what do I do? I don't want to sound like them, so I look for something else. I don't want to play the type of sounds that I would put in a country song either. It keeps me on my toes, trying to find a crack to play in.

If there's only one guitar player, I can paint with a broader brush.

Some of the comments from the guitarists are like "we have the guitar sound covered from 2 different angles, we want to hear the pedal steel in a rock context". I take that to mean they don't want me to imitate a guitar player playing guitar licks, rather pull something out of the steel guitar that fits the music, execution wise and sound wise. That's what I try to do.

The pedal steel guitar is a great vehicle for expression in many ways for any style of music you want. It's the narrow minded selfishness and archaic attitudes that are the stumbling blocks.

I love an emotional country ballad or good Ray Price shuffle as much as the next guy, I also love a rock tune as well...or a jazz tune...or a swing tune...pop too.

I won't tell you how to play yours if you won't tell me how to play mine, OK?

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 3 Jul 2011 5:06 pm

Go, Jerry.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 3 Jul 2011 7:47 pm

Yup............go Jerry!

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Jul 2011 7:48 pm

Jerry Overstreet wrote:Why can't we love traditional country music and rock, blues, gospel, sacred, swing, jazz, classical or whatever?

Don't forget Juju Music from Nigeria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN6TaMN1S9U&feature=fvst

The steel comes in at 1 minute and 20 seconds and takes a 35 second ride.

Here's another example. The steel ride starts at 4:45 and lasts almost a minute

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 3 Jul 2011 8:04 pm

Matt Rhodes wrote:It's the 20th Century, guys. Google it.

Talk about being stuck in the past! It's the 21st century!

**Just funnin'!**

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 3 Jul 2011 9:53 pm

Bill, i'm with you buddy. I don't care what changes. I have played traditional country for over 45 years. My interest lies in jazz, pop, and standards. I play C6th. However, when it comes to {country} music. The prettiest music in the world, is listening to an old country ballad, with a E9th steel guitarist, with Ray Price, or Faron Young doing the vocal honors. You can change what you may, but you'll never equal the beauty of that.
P.S. Mike doesn't need hair, he plays long hair close enough. Love the chaulker video, and your CD's mike

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 4 Jul 2011 5:48 am

I think this whole issue has been overstated. It's true that pedal steel isn't as common on new country recordings as it was in days gone by. But I spend a lot of time listening to ' The Highway ' on Sirius satellite radio which is comprised of all new country. I'm pleasantly surprised by just how much steel I do hear. It certainly hasn't disappeared and clearly some of the new artists want it as a part of their sound. Let's not be burying the living.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 4 Jul 2011 1:05 pm

yeah, it all comes down to personal taste i s'pose. But there are those that consider lady ga ga a country singer {gage}. And that constant annoying harmony singing on every new song. Buck & don would barf.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 4 Jul 2011 1:50 pm

George Redmon wrote: r equal the beauty of that.
P.S. Mike doesn't need hair, he plays long hair close enough. Love the Chaulker video, and your CD's mike

Thanks George. I still have hundreds of Chalker DVDs sitting in my garage, so if anybody wants one, please send me an E-mail.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 4 Jul 2011 3:10 pm

Getting back to the original subject, why would anybody feel that the existence of any style of playing or any genre of music has any affect on the existence of any other style of playing or any genre of music?

Look at how many players like Buddy Emmons and Doug Jernigan play jazz in addition to playing country. Look Joe Goldmark who can play both country and hard rock, equally well, Or Joe Savage who can play anything in any style. (Just about every song on Joe's Perennial Sideman CD is different from all the others. This is one of my all time favorite steel guitar CDs.)

We do need to preserve the traditional styles of playing, but it doesn't follow that EVERYBODY has to preserve them. If you want to play country, go ahead and play country. Nobody's stopping you. If you want to play rock or classical or Irish music or music from Japan, or avant-garde music like Susan Alcorn (who BTW studied with Jeff Newman and can play country as well as, if not better than, anybody on this forum,) then play that kind of music. There should be room for everybody and every style.