Union Dues Lol

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 19 Jan 2011 9:59 am

Earnest Bovine wrote:
Rusty Rhoads wrote:... recording an album with said band from INDIANA and got paid for the demom then it went on to master session
Rusty, who is the signatory to the AFM Phono agreement?
Is it the band (probably on a one project basis) or is it a record company?

Still unanswered. Inquiring minds want to know.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 19 Jan 2011 12:54 pm

A contract is a contract... so my question is:

If one feels the union is not doing their job in getting you paid as per the contract, why can't you take that contract and use it personally as the basis for a small claims court case ?
Before you tell me "you shouldn't have to", I know that. My question still stands.
- John

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 20 Jan 2011 8:20 am

I agree with John Steele. We live in a land governed by laws, and a contract is a contract. A small claims court remedy will put money in your pocket. A "baseball bat to the knees", "pair of pliers to the fingers" or "vise grip on the scrotum" will just land you in jail.

I know it's a hassle and you shouldn't have to do it, but there's no point in a revenge that will make things worse for you.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Jan 2011 1:10 pm

agreed with the above assessments.. The Union cannot make anyone pay, they have no legal standing or recourse, they have no legal position unless they represented YOU in the contract and are a signed party to the contract. Even at that they can only hire an atty to go to court, they still have no legal position.

Take your contract to a court of Law where they can assign damages , place liens, attach paychecks etc....

I would also ask, even though it's none of my business, why was this not pay as you go ? May I ask what the terms were, payment at the end of the project I suspect ?

It really stinks...

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 20 Jan 2011 6:32 pm

Rusty,you are playing a dead rattle. The Union card is only as good to help you in good standing. The mealtime ticket is measureless to what is going to come out of this topic from your post. God He Ain't Cheap and will help you get all you need.You need a great Lawyer so he or she can get rick off of you. That's the way the American Dream works.Business.Good Luck. Leo J.Eiffert,jr.

Bruce Bouton · Post by **Bruce Bouton** » 20 Jan 2011 7:37 pm

I happen to be a member of local 257 in Nashville. I'm also on the board of the Local union. in addition I am President of the Recording Musicians Association (RMA) which is a player conference dedicated to protecting the interests of recording musicians throughout the US.
One of my best friends , Dave Pomeroy , is President. He works his tail off trying to protect musicians and get their money. There is one catch . Th work needs to be documented. If it was done on a contract the Local will go after the money.
Rusty I'm sorry that the business has treated you so unfairly.
Do me a favor .Don't drag my friends through the mud with you.
Pomeroy is working his ass off trying to help musicians. It doesn't do anyone any good to run him down.
BB

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 20 Jan 2011 8:56 pm

Bruce,I'm proud to see how loyal you are to who you know in the power line of your back round of the Music Business that you protect here in the United States of America. Most words don't have a ounce of trust with so many loop-holes in th life style license.Just like vows in a marriage,it's still a business deal no matter how you cut it at the end.So far the love of brotherhood in Musicians circle of life,it's a one way street if your in to keep paying to play for protecting that don't cover.So,I'm sure Rusty has magnet himself right out of the Nashville circle with his made to measure of being honest.This routine will always be after we are all gone from this earth. Sincerely in Country Music and all styles,Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & his Pigeons Band.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 21 Jan 2011 6:39 am

I'm still curious about the contract, too. Who is the signatory on the contract? Did anyone else on the session get paid? Six grand is around 7 double scale master sessions or 14 regular master sessions or 25 limited pressing sessions...that's a lot of sessions for one contract...If the contract was not with an established company, I would have felt pretty uncomfortable doing that much work, on or off the card, without some kind of assurance it was going to be paid.....What is the specific reason the union will not pursue it? Lots of unanswered questions here....

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 21 Jan 2011 3:41 pm

Well I hesitate to pile in here.

I do have experience with Local 99 here in PDX, but nothing major. There was never a big union machine here.

In Construction mine has been with the Teamsters, and not without some skin in the game, and rough stuff going on etc. I always seemed to be the one that had to roll up my sleeves, take the threats, and "get my fricking money" as I used to put it...

All I can say is that NO Union can or should be expected to look out for, fight for, or babysitpeople that won't do it for themselves.

"Booking agents" are similar. Even worse. They would rather stiff the bands they book than ruffle the clubowners..

I hope it works out for you Rusty. There isn't much going on these days that's good for anybody.

I've been stringing together jobs in clubs that are closing, with bands that are folding, and have been REALLY lucky to work more weekends than not. The high point of my year MIGHT be to be able to work in a band backing Jack Green, and Jeannie Sealy on a tour this spring for two days. I'm working on that. I was LUCKY enough to do the same thing with Stonewall Jackson last year. I've been lucky to avoid any "recording projects" that haven't been cash daily.

Like I said, Rusty you're a good guy and player from what 'my friend in Nvl' says, and it's really rough times for things right now. A lot of people are getting driven nuts by it.

Hang in there.

EJL

Rusty Rhoads · Post by **Rusty Rhoads** » 21 Jan 2011 3:49 pm

no Comment to Bruce Bouton can you hold my pick's for minute ?
comment to BOB it was meant DEMO not DEMOM TY lol
i hate court's to crooked for me in Nashville been there got the T shirt and the HAT i will get my money TRUST ME ! i all ways get what i earn ......
Small claims court would be nice if i was not the second party i wish i could post a copy of the contract but i do not have it other said party has it then you could tell me if you think its a good contract or bad i was told it had to many loop hole's in it LOL people will tell you anything i guess to get out of work perhaps

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 21 Jan 2011 4:00 pm

oh...look at all the 'happy' people!!

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 22 Jan 2011 4:53 pm

President Dave Pomeroy from Local 257 has asked me to post this response for him, since he is not a member of the Forum.

By the way, Dave is a well-liked long-time working musician in this town with an unbelievable resume; he's not some faceless bureaucrat just collecting a paycheck... People here have widely different opinions about the union of course, but Dave has earned the respect at least of most working players here by being 'one of them' for over 25 years. Speaking of disagreeing, I'll admit I don't really agree with Dave using countless hours and resources that members pay for to try and help out people that can't be bothered to join; like I say, we disagree on that one... Dave's post is kind of long, but I would think anybody that's been following the thread this far maybe could give spare a few minutes for him to tell his side?

Dear Rusty, I was quite surprised to read all the things you said about me and my year- long effort to get all the musicians, including non Union members like you, paid on the unnamed album project you refer to in your posts. I should also mention this project occurred in 2007, long before I became Local 257 President, yet when the producer came to me for help in early 2009, I willingly took it on. The producer of the project, who was not a member of Local 257 at the time of the sessions, failed to get an AFM signatory agreement from the artist or their management and did not file any time cards until after he had a falling out with the artist. At that point he came to the Union office, rejoined Local 257, and turned in a stack of time cards that had no employer signatures, and could not produce cancelled checks showing that all the musicians had actually been paid demo scale. He then demanded that the Union collect over $50,000 in master upgrade fees, more than half of which would have gone to him.

The Union had absolutely no legal standing in this matter due to the lack of a signatory employer's signature on any of the more than 20 demo cards, which were filed well after the sessions actually occurred. This simple step is a 'must do' first step for any producer wanting to protect the musicians he employs, In addition, the producer had written his own 'Agreement' with the artist that, unfortunately, was full of legal loopholes, including the invented term 'Demo Masters,' a term that does not exist anywhere in Union procedure or language. Our lawyer looked at this 'agreement' and the unsigned time cards and concluded that we had nothing that would hold up in court. Despite this, I tracked the band and their management down and went to every length possible to pursue payment. I had numerous meetings and countless phone calls with everyone concerned and tried to negotiate a settlement, but after more than a year, I had no choice but to abandon my efforts.

I am far from perfect, but despite your comments to the contrary, I am not a "weak, no backbone kind of guy with no guts" or an "idiot." Feel free to ask around. My conscience is clear that I did ALL I could do for you and the other musicians involved in this unfortunate situation. You don't really know me, though I did speak with you a number of times during this process to find out more about your side of the story, explain to you how it went wrong, and to keep you updated on my efforts. You have never been an AFM member, yet I went out of my way to try and help you. As far as the "vice grips on my scrodum (sic)" that you suggest as a remedy to this particular situation I would just say, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

FYI, since taking office, I have been successful in collecting many thousands of dollars of back money owed to players, some dating back as far as 2006, three years before I became President of Local 257. If the bandleader or producer takes care of business on the front end by getting a signatory agreement, this gives us the all the leverage we need to go after the non-payers. That's how it's done. You can blame us for someone else's mistakes if you want, Rusty. It's easy to throw rocks from a distance, but perhaps you should try and learn a little bit about how to protect yourself. We are happy to do all we can to help you or any other musician, THAT'S WHAT WE DO!

I am well aware that many people have not had a great experience with Union membership, and we are working hard to turn that around. Every city and Local is different, but Nashville would be a very different place without the Musician's Union. We collect millions of dollars for musicians every year, for sessions, live performances, film and television work. We have a Funeral Benefit, and an Emergency Relief Fund that has helped many of our members through tough times, and we are now part of a group health care plan that has saved our members thousands of dollars. Last year, I developed a Single Song Overdub Scale to allow home recording overdubs to be done "on the card" that permits the player to pay into his own pension for the first time in the history of the AFM. Our new website at www.nashvillemusicians.org has allowed members to advertise themselves and their bands for no additional cost other than annual dues and people are actually getting work through the website. We created a Flood Relief Fund this year and paid out over $70,000 to musicians who lost gear in the Nashville Flood, most of whom were NOT Union members.

The new leadership of the AFM, of which I am a part of as an International Executive Board member, is also working very hard to rebuild confidence and trust in our membership. The point of being in the Union is strength in numbers, and we are always stronger when we stick together. I am personally offended by your remarks about me, but I will let them roll off my back in the hopes that some of the people who read this blog will give the Union the benefit of the doubt and see what we have to offer. If anyone has any questions comments about Union membership, feel free to email me at dave@afm257.org.

Respectfully,
Dave Pomeroy
President, Nashville Musicians Association, AFM Local 257
www.nashvillemusicians.org - www.davepomeroy.com - www.afm.org

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 22 Jan 2011 8:22 pm

There ya have it. I don't always agree 100% with Dave, but have known him for many years, and have nothing but respect for him and the job he is doing as prez of the Gnashville AFM.

additional text deleted by moderator /viewtopic.php?p=1733164#1733164

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 23 Jan 2011 6:07 am

A non-union member expecting the union to collect a 3+ year old non-union contract? I'm surprised any union representative would even spend 10 seconds of their time on that. I commend Mr. Pomeroy for helping at all.

Good thing he has a cool head because things could get real ugly if he wanted them to...

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/cr ... Threat.htm

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 Jan 2011 6:26 am

It sounds to me like the Nashville guys are lucky to have Mr Pomeroy looking after their interests.

Danny: I was thinking the same thing.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 23 Jan 2011 6:44 am

Tennessee up to $25,000 1-10 years up to 3 years May be ordered counseling and/or house arrest following parole. Judge may also take the right to bear arms.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 23 Jan 2011 7:01 am

Pete, nice note from Dave,thanks for sharing it, and like he stated

The Union has NO LEGAL recourse.

I never suspected they did in this matter..

Dave P sounds like a heck of a guy... This is not dissing Randy either, he may have been misinformed or given wrong information on how to get this issue resolved.

To me this whole deal sounds like Rusty was very trusting, struck a deal, even had a piece of paper with the deal..did his end of the deal then got burned...it happens in all facets of business..I hate it for Rusty but he does need to get closure but obviously not from the Union.

PAY as you go or get paid as you go has a nice ring to it...

Although I told a story of an experience from the 70's above with regard to the local AFM, I do feel the AFM is an important and worthy organization for professional working musicians.

t

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 23 Jan 2011 10:22 am

some text was deleted by the moderator /viewtopic.php?p=1733164#1733164

the mounties always get their man...rusty always gets his money...'trust him'!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 23 Jan 2011 10:37 am

From the Forum rules:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not post any material which is knowingly false, defamatory, libelous, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, racist or illegal.

As I read it, some of you have been bashing Rusty pretty badly here. I've deleted some of the harsh "defamatory and abusive" posts, and I'm putting you all on notice that they won't be tolerated.

Rusty didn't complain to me, by the way. It's just how I see it and as moderator I feel compelled to act.

Pete Finney · Post by **Pete Finney** » 23 Jan 2011 11:03 am

But by the same rules THIS is apparently okay...?!?!?!

i say a baseball bat to the knees works really nice or a pair of pliers to the fingers of said people that owe the money should influence them to pay
or a vise grip on the scrodem of the union president might make him act the way he should

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 23 Jan 2011 11:10 am

I appreciate that, Pete, but they seemed to me to be idle threats of frustration against the establishment, not any particular individual. In light of the fact that the actual union president was indeed involved in the dispute, and had talked to Rusty, I see your point.

The topic is now closed.

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Union Dues Lol

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