A new instrument

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 6 Dec 2012 11:42 am

It appears to me that Kelst knocked off a design by a guy named Planck from texas back in 2008, the difference being Kelst having 9 strings and the "Plank" having 7, Plank wood, Kelst aluminum. They all knocked off the original tap/touch instruments as far as string tension, 1st fret damping and pickup heights etc.

I personally didn't get Kevin to make the first tapper 9 str, he had already made one for someone else, I just saw it and ordered one.

There are at least a dozen bigtime builders makers making Chapman stick type instruments and no-one seems to be getting upset about it, including Warr and Megatar which even utilize Chapmans 4ths up,5ths down tuning.
If you don't,can't or won't patent something you give tacit consent to have it copied.

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 6 Dec 2012 11:56 am

Oh- I did forget to mention that I contacted Jan Kelst in Belgium to ask where I could see one and he gave me Rouge Music in New York city, and when I called them they said they had none, and were no longer dealers.
Jan wanted 1200euros plus shipping (300usd)so I wound up searching the net & found Kevin

Altho not wildly expensive $1800+ is lot to spend on an unknown instrument. I think Kevin is actually helping Kelstone by putting cheap instruments out there that will eventually lead to Kelstone sales. I know of more than one person who started on Kevins 'KRAPPY' sticks and later bought a chapman stick.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 6 Dec 2012 12:05 pm

" I think Kevin is actually helping Kelstone by putting cheap instruments out there that will eventually lead to Kelstone sales.'

Yeah, I think Gucci bag sales went up once China started knocking them off.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 6 Dec 2012 12:06 pm

"Oh- I did forget to mention that I contacted Jan Kelst in Belgium to ask where I could see one and he gave me Rouge Music in New York city, and when I called them they said they had none, and were no longer dealers. "

Ludlow Guitars is listed on their site as their NYC dealer. Did you contact them?

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 6 Dec 2012 12:21 pm

Actually from doing a little internet snooping it appears that Kelstone is protected by international patents. Not sure what the patents cover, and I assume that the only one who can be sued would be the manufacturer of said knockoff, but there definitely seems to be be patents in place, or at least patent pending.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... X3gYd7OjRA

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 6 Dec 2012 1:07 pm

Actually I forgot, it was Ludlow, not Rouge that i contacted and said they were no longer dealers
Bill
The link appears to be saying that what is patent pending is the 'double Kelstone' and not the single.

I don't know or care- I was interested in in commenting
about the horizontal stringed touch style instruments
be it Plank, Kelstone, or Krappy - not to get into a whole hoopla about patents and knockoffs.

Also neither Kevin or myself ever saw a Kelstone in the 'flesh' so nothing was copied but the fact there were 9 strings in 4ths- which quality I doubt could be patented.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Dec 2012 1:09 pm

Gene Fields made at least one steel guitar with a fretted neck, and Zane King has posted videos of his fretted pedal tap guitar. It's hard to see how you could patent something that other people invented before you, and then demand royalties. Gibson's threat of a lawsuit has led to Warmoth discontinuing their more obvious "Les Paul" and "SG" bodies, but Gibson lost when they went after PRS. If Kelstone is going to be "the" tap machine of the 21st century they're going to have to do better than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF_7RAmV2t4

I'd pay them not to play that.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 6 Dec 2012 1:27 pm

"It's hard to see how you could patent something that other people invented before you, and then demand royalties. "

I believe a prior art argument could be made in order to defend oneself from a lawsuit, but that is an expensive argument to make in court. I was involved with something similar and a lot of money was spent proving prior art.

But everything depends on what is covered in the patent. In this case, my guess is that if they felt their patent was violated, they would issue a cease and desist order.

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 7 Dec 2012 1:52 am

Bill
You're beating a dead horse- there is no patent violation, and you are hijacking a thread about the Kelstone to grind your own axe about knockoffs-

There is no comparison between gucci bags being knocked off in china which are exact replicas that print the words Gucci, or any other pirated stuff- as for the so called international patent you gave a link to, that does not look like any patent application I've ever seen, no annotated drawings, no detail discription

aside from your patent violation comments do you have any opinion about the Kelstone at all?

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 7 Dec 2012 5:45 am

Actually YOU interrupted the thread to talk about your knock off. You did resurrect a 2 year thread to talk about your knock off didn't you? I was commenting on that. It seems you don't have anything to say about the Kelstone because you've never played one.

"aside from your patent violation comments do you have any opinion about the Kelstone at all?"

Sure...seems easy to knock off.

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 7 Dec 2012 7:31 am

Bill- You're getting bent out of shape over nothing

I did talk about playing a similar instrument and playing 2 handed as well. It was a poor choice of words on my part to say " kind of knock off". If you care to find the actual patent( which I doubt) you will see that Kelst describes his dual neck instrument as "two chapman sticks" so who's knocking off what?

This could have been a good discussion of two hand tap instruments, especially 'lap' style or table style, but you continue to whine like an old lady about knock offs.

I wont say any more about the kelstone but the next time you go to walmart talk to them about knock-offs

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 7 Dec 2012 7:38 am

I have never, nor will I ever, shop at Walmart.

"
This could have been a good discussion of two hand tap instruments"

We could have. If you had started your own thread. But you didn't.

I understand: you thought you would be cool and show everyone how you saved a couple of bucks ripping off another guys design. You didn't expect anyone to call you on it. Theft is theft. enjoy your instrument.

Here is what you said:

1. I liked what the Kelstone Created.
2. I contacted them to see if they had a New York distributor.
3. They didn't. $1,800 was too much to spend on an instrument you'd never played.
4. But you did pay someone to create a knock off, so even though you hadn't played the instrument, you were willing to buy it sight unseen and unplayed for a lesser amount.

That, my friend, is theft, IMHO. You didn't compensate the person who developed the idea for their proprietary intelligence. You come on here and are surprised someone would find fault with your actions.

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 7 Dec 2012 8:03 am

Bill
You are displaying a total ignorance of the current state of 'touch-style' instruments. There are literally hundreds of small time makers using aspects of other peoples instruments and no one is screaming infringement.
Kind of like the 'open source foundation' where you can modify any ones' code, but this is the music world not software, and this is a forum about music, & this thread was about a tapping instrument.

To call me a thief is outrageous. You are certainly an abrasive and stupid person to say this on a public forum.

I think I'll sue you for libel.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 7 Dec 2012 8:05 am

Go ahead.

Man, I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said they were going to sue someone on an online forum.

All opinions are my own.

I really hate bullies.

Ron Castle · Post by **Ron Castle** » 7 Dec 2012 9:10 am

I guess you've said a lot of stupid things on public forums- that might be a clue for a wiser person

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 7 Dec 2012 9:18 am

Are you denigrating me on an online forum Ron?

I'll guess I'll file a law suit.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 7 Dec 2012 9:56 am

You guys should start a band!

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 7 Dec 2012 9:57 am

We should. We can call it "Knockoff and the Frivolous Lawsuits"

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 7 Dec 2012 11:38 am

Chill, guys.

All of these instruments are derived from the Chapman Stick, and the patent for it has long expired. There's no theft going on here.

Give it a rest.