Is Band-In-A-Box Ruining Steel Guitar Albums?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Jun 2010 7:27 am

Re:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y0kigtjtrdu

I listened, Bill. I think you're missing my point.

Which "musician" on that track captures your attention? Which part can you listen to for more than 4 bars without yawning? Real musicians surprise you with inventive parts. They don't transpose a library of canned licks to match each chord. I can listen to a rhythm track made by musicians from beginning to end without being bored. Even if it's just one guy overdubbing parts with a synth, he won't be that dull.

A real rhythm section plays with time instead of being slaves to it. Good rhythm players push forward and pull back from each other without changing the tempo, adding tension and emotion. There's none of that subtlety in a BIAB track. And it gets much better if the musicians can hear and respond to the steel part. They actually play with each other. The BIAB players can't hear each other at all. There's no feeling in it.

BIAB is a great tool, but it's no substitute for real players.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Jun 2010 8:26 am

I personally have no problem with a well done BAIB track. Most of them sound better than the poorly produced live player tracks that you hear.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 16 Jun 2010 8:49 am

b0b wrote:A real rhythm section plays with time instead of being slaves to it. Good rhythm players push forward and pull back from each other without changing the tempo, adding tension and emotion.

That's nicely said, b0b. I agree. Listening to that BIAB track, I thought initially "This sounds pretty convincing", but soon found myself bugged by the lack of what I might call "elasticity" in the rhythm. It actually served to highlight for myself just how important that is to me.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Jun 2010 9:00 am

I think this is an issue of poorly recorded BIAB. It has all sorts of features to push the rhythm, alter the rhythm, and the new live instruments are pretty wonderful.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jun 2010 5:38 pm

Gotta be the first time I ever agreed with Bill, but unless he goes nuts here...

I do.

EJL

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Jun 2010 5:48 pm

Eric West wrote:Gotta be the first time I ever agreed with Bill, but unless he goes nuts here...

thank you sir.

there is blood running down my lip....trying to contain myself.......biting....biting...more biting.....i will not say anymore......

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Jun 2010 7:07 pm

A white stone day, Eric.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 16 Jun 2010 8:40 pm

Actually I thought it was only one Bill.

I can say the same thing about both of youse on this one.

I had to pinch myself for sure..

EJL

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 16 Jun 2010 9:27 pm

The way I see it, b0b's original post can be interpreted into three main points (If I am wrong, b0b, please correct me):

1) Music made by human musicians (I think it goes without saying that this implicitly means good musicians), is intrinsically preferable to music made by pre-programmed machine(s), because the human musician's music has in it the elements of unpredictability, however subtle, potential spontaneity, and reactivity to the other music around it (all could be subsumed under the heading "creativity").

2) In making recordings to be offered to the public/the ages, one should do one's best to make them to a high standard.

3) That standard should include taking into consideration point 1.

I have a hard time believing that point 1 is debatable, but perhaps I'm just a foot-dragger in the metamorphosis of the human species from "real world" existence to cyber-existence.

I also find it hard to imagine serious arguments against point 2.

Point 3 is perhaps the one some are disagreeing with, and may be more debatable, but where other than in the world of steel guitar does it come up? Do sax players, keyboard players, guitarists etc. often put out albums showcasing their own playing with BIAB accompaniment?

(Do they have "jams" where multiple soloists play sequentially and non-interactively to a mindlessly repeating loop of robotic accompaniment? To musicians outside the steel guitar niche, that scenario would be the antithesis of what's meant by a "jam"--elsewhere, "jam" means free-wheeling simultaneous creativity by a group of musicians playing together, with more or less minimal and constantly malleable set structure. But I digress...)

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Jun 2010 10:24 pm

Well said, Brint.

The arguments in favor of using BIAB on serious recordings seem to be:

1) it costs less than using real musicians

2) it can sound pretty good, from a technical standpoint

I think that engineers are too easily seduced by the perfect sounds that a computer can produce. It's a lot more work to get a good drum mix or even a good acoustic guitar sound. If those parts are built into a computer program, the argument goes, why not use them?

You already have my answer.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 16 Jun 2010 11:52 pm

b0b wrote: The arguments in favor of using BIAB on serious recordings seem to be:

1) it costs less than using real musicians

2) it can sound pretty good, from a technical standpoint

3) BIAB plays the chords you tell it to play and won't argue with you about your stupid chords.

4) BIAB may be bad, but it is better than a lot of players that we all know.

5) BIAB shows up on time, and doesn't get drunk and hit on your girl friend (I think that is an old drum machine joke)

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 17 Jun 2010 3:26 am

The arguments in favor of using BIAB on serious recordings seem to be:

1) it costs less than using real musicians

I don't think that is the main reason. BIAB lets you work at your own pace, try new things out, experiment, and tweak anytime of day or night. It is just way more convenient than hiring a band.

It is 3am: I can write a tune, put it into BIAB, record, and have it up for distribution by that morning. I can see the attraction of that.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Jun 2010 3:56 am

ELJ...Randy Mason is Brent's brother, drummer and guitar player, fine player...Brent and Randy did Smokin' Session a great CD..Don't forget to read the liner notes with regard to the Red Strat ! Randy is also a forum member here...real easy to find playing around Nville as well. Kool guy !

BIAB , wonderful practice tool, even good for CD/TAB/DVD teaching projects, but for a CD with intent to distribute ?

When I listen to music CD's I zero in on many instruments, Bass players and Drummer's...I listen for the groove and how those players are playing in the groove. For me, how does a main player stretch without other quality players to connect with ? I don't just listen to Steel Guitars on Steel Guitar CD's. Quality music comes from the SPACE between the notes as much as it does from the actual notes...

No disrespect to BIAB users, I am sure they are pleased with there own work. I have BIAB and use it for defined purposes.

The biggest detriment I see, is that we, as a one man programmer, maybe we are guitar players, Steel players etc...maybe we even play some Bass...but we do not think like the players of other Instruments, unless we are really gifted and play across many many instruments we are limited in our thought process for the other Instruments. Kinda like a Guitar player who believes he is a Bass player. More often than not they are adequate at best and they play Bass like a Guitar player...

just sayin'...

t

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 17 Jun 2010 7:06 am

Bill McCloskey wrote:It is 3am: I can write a tune, put it into BIAB, record, and have it up for distribution by that morning. I can see the attraction of that.

Right. That's what I would call a demo. That's the sort of thing I use BIAB for all the time. I have no problem with that.

I'm objecting to using it for their album tracks - the things that people pay $15 for and expect to have on their shelf for repeated listening over the years. I feel ripped off when I shell out hard earned cash for a CD that sounds and feels like one guy playing with a computer at 3 AM.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Jun 2010 9:25 am

I feel ripped off when I shell out hard earned cash for a CD that sounds and feels like one guy playing with a computer at 3 AM.

mebbe you should stop selling them... hehehe*

I agree about that BIAB is a good practice toy, and also agree about buying a BIAB-based CD. I would even go further, and say much of what's wrong with modern commercial music has to do with the producers who use Pro Tools as a means of standardizing and re-machining the performances of actual musicians. Unlike some, I don't think digitizing is a sin per se, but cymbals that have been put into a digital realm and messed with three times re-enter this universe sounding like bursts of tuned-and-timed static, not like vibrating sheets of bronze. Pro Tool addicts have an obsession with time-shifting parts to make them "sit right" - because the producers are so rarely in the same room/same time as the musicians these days, they can't tell the drummer to "slow down", so they digitize the crap out of it instead. I see little difference between importing ACID loops recorded by "real musicians", using BIAB parts recorded by "real musicians", or hiring a digitally-addled Pro Tools producer who takes all your "real" parts and turns them into digitized loops to be manipulated into a "repaired" artifact.

(Hint: a band who can't play their own songs straight through from start to finish isn't ready to record)
(Hint: a producer who thinks they're a band member and knows better is a sign of at least two problems)

*(or at least post a disclaimer?)

David Griffin · Post by **David Griffin** » 17 Jun 2010 1:02 pm

IMHO:The rythym section on a tune is the cake,the steel is the icing. No matter how good the icing tastes,if the cake sucks,EVERYTHING sucks!

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 17 Jun 2010 1:19 pm

That's what I would call a demo. That's the sort of thing I use BIAB for all the time. I have no problem with that.

Yes, yes. But if it was Joaquin Murphy playing, I'd still buy it. It is hard to make a blanket statement. There were tons of pick up bands playing behind Louis Armstrong over the years, sounding terrible - very BIAB style - and yet he rose above whatever was played behind him. It all depends on what you are looking for. A featured soloist playing over even band in a box can be more than a demo.

I'll leave this thread with this thought. About 2 years ago I set up band in a box in my basement. My daughter came down and we did a song she was working on. I overdubbed some trumpet playing. Couldn't have done it without biab and when I listen to it now...well you might not pay $15 for it, but I wouldn't sell it for a million.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Jun 2010 2:48 pm

The part about playing with Bills daughter, I agree 100% but I don't think that's what we are talking about here ...the part where JM was playing with a BIAB style band, they were still REAL people even if they were a lack luster band, he could connect with musicians rather than looking at a bunch of C C C F F F G G G on a PC screen !

Don't get me wrong , I like BIAB and I purchased one of the earliest versions when it came out, but using it to make tracks for distribution of a CURRENT commercial CD is not something I would consider. To me, if I was going to spend time doing something to showcase the best I could do musically, I would want everything to be as good as I could possibly get, even if it meant spending dollars to get there.

just sayin'...

t

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 17 Jun 2010 3:34 pm

Listen... this is more devils advocate than anything. I'm a jazz guy...do you think I don't like real musicians playing with each other.

But I could also see myself using BIAB as backing tracks for a bar gig playing jazz. There are some bars in manhattan that have musicians crammed in the corner. BIAB makes a great one man band.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 17 Jun 2010 4:32 pm

I've never used BIAB on a recording, for the very reasons b0b said. I always play the background instruments myself one at a time.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 18 Jun 2010 1:09 am

Bill McCloskey wrote:Listen... this is more devils advocate than anything. I'm a jazz guy...do you think I don't like real musicians playing with each other.
.

No, not at all, the topic is about purposely cutting a CD for commercial use using BIAB for tracks. Deciding on using BIAB rather than real people with warm blood flowing thru the veins. I totally get where Bill is coming from. I also totally agree with Bobs topic !