needing advice for fixing up a les paul

[Dave Mudgett]

Re: P-90 hum - it also matters what application and amp one is using. A jazz guitar into a low-gain clean amp is very different than a Les Paul into a high-gain, cranked-up, or otherwise distorted amp.

WRT Jim's post on which amp I was using - I used my P-90 guitars into all kinds of amps from tweed/blackface/silverface Fenders to an old Magnatone 260 to Marshalls and Laneys. But the reference amp I was speaking of was my pretty well cranked up '65 Deluxe Reverb. I could work with the noisier P-90 guitars with that amp - I used a noise gate or gated with a volume pedal to keep it manageable during quiet periods, but they were irritatingly noisy. But I could never push the gain on higher-gain amps like my Laney or Marshall - the signal-to-noise ratio was just impossible, a Strat/Tele problematic but workable, and a humbucker generally not a problem.

Definitely - the application matters, and YMMV.

[Jim Phelps]

Re: P-90 hum - it also matters what application and amp one is using. A jazz guitar into a low-gain clean amp is very different than a Les Paul into a high-gain, cranked-up, or otherwise distorted amp.

That's certainly true.

WRT Jim's post on which amp I was using - I used my P-90 guitars into all kinds of amps from tweed/blackface/silverface Fenders to an old Magnatone 260 to Marshalls and Laneys. But the reference amp I was speaking of was my pretty well cranked up '65 Deluxe Reverb. I could work with the noisier P-90 guitars with that amp - I used a noise gate or gated with a volume pedal to keep it manageable during quiet periods, but they were irritatingly noisy. But I could never push the gain on higher-gain amps like my Laney or Marshall - the signal-to-noise ratio was just impossible, a Strat/Tele problematic but workable, and a humbucker generally not a problem.

Definitely - the application matters, and YMMV.

Well you sure gave them a workout with plenty of different amps.

Problem I have with a noise gate is getting it set just right to cut out the hum but not cut off the sustain too. I had better luck using a volume pedal, but don't use one for guitar anymore.

It's been my experience in messing around with pickups...I had boxes and boxes of PU parts and used to do a lot of experimentation... that single coil pickups using bar magnets do pick up more hum, than pickups with separate cylindrical magnetized polepieces, as in a Fender. The bar magnets typically have much higher output which does somewhat offset the higher hum, in clean settings, probably not if you use high overdrive.

I have put Strat polepiece magnets in a P90 coil (removing the bar magnets) a la Jazzmaster pickups... that was a great sound, to me at least. Less output but brighter sound.

Sorry to go off topic a bit but seemed like the "what to do with this Les Paul" has already been pretty well settled.

As always Dave M I respect your experience and input even if we end up with somewhat different conclusions.

[Dave Mudgett]

Yup, I used to mess around with pickups and electronics a lot - I owned a vintage guitar shop at the time, and had lots of junk lying around to play with. I agree on the bar magnet designs tending to be different - the resonant peak is lower and broader, and gives P-90s a big part of their characteristic tone.

Don't get me wrong - my favorite Carlos Santana tone is from the first couple of albums when he was using an SG Special with P-90s. Look at the Woodstock clips, just fantastic. He had it cranked and somehow made it work. Don't know whether he just had a quiet set of P-90s in that or what, but that was a great sound. Leslie West with Mountain also, although when I first saw him in 1969 or 70, he was playing that Junior through, I believe, a Sunn stack cranked, and it hummed like crazy during song breaks, he was constantly reaching for his volume knob. But it sounded great.

BTW Jim - it is good to see you posting more here again. I agree it's good to see things from different points of view. I learn lots from hearing different approaches to any of this stuff.

[Jim Phelps]

I agree completely about Santana's sound. I think he never sounded as good as with that old SG Special w/p90's. Mine was a '64, Santana was not an influence in buying it, found it in a pawn shop in Vegas for $200. First and only SG I've ever owned but I liked it. Great neck...thinking about getting another.

Experimenting with PUs and guitar wiring was fun and I learned a lot. A couple of music stores used to give me their old pickup parts and junk so I had lots of parts to play with. I've been an amateur radio op all my life, like many of us here, so it gives some background but good guitar sound is a whole other thing than radio.

Thanks, yes I did kindof disappear for a couple years but lately have felt like sticking my nose back in.

[Dave Zirbel]

Some of my favorite Les Paul tones came from Jerry Garcia in the late 60's. I think he is playing a goldtop or black one with a Bigsby on Anthem of the Sun. Since that album is made from live tapes he might have played the Starfire on some of it too.


I just cranked up the Paul through a Super reverb that came back from the shop today. I think those pickups are going to work out fine. Any idea judging from the pic what they could be? Could they be stock Gibsons?

It's ok with me if we drift off topic as long as we're still talking Les Pauls.

[Dave Mudgett]

Blowing up the neck pickup from your shot a bit, it appears (it's a bit fuzzy, admittedly) that the top set of pole pieces are flathead screws, and the bottom set are slugs, which could be practically any Gibson humbucker style repro, or an old pickup. It could even be an original Pat. Number pickup with the cover off, or perhaps a Dirty Fingers pickup, which were used back then quite a bit. The DFs typically came with no cover.

What it does not look like is a DiMarzio Super Distortion, which typically had (hex-head I think) screw pole pieces. The DiM SD's are reviled by a lot of blues purists, but Billy Gibbons seemed to make the work fine in a Dean guitar on Eliminator - I wouldn't rush to judgment on any pickup before giving it a reasonable try, and it sounds like you won't.

Measure the DC resistance with an Ohm Meter - an old standard Gibson Humbucker typically measured around 7.8 KOhms plus or minus a bit, perhaps the bridge unit might be overwound, but not by a lot. A lot of modern pickup sets significantly overwind the bridge pickup to balance the output and fatten up the bridge pickup sound a bit - the string vibrates wider towards the middle of the string than towards the end where the bridge pickup is.

You might also just remove the screws from the pickup surrounds and look underneath - if you see "PATENT NO 2,737,842" either on a black and gold sticker or (more likely for 78 ) stamped into the metal bottom plate, it's probably an original Gibson pickup. From 65-75 or perhaps later, there is a little "T" molded into the top of genuine Gibson humbucker bobbins - such pickups are generally called "T-Top" humbuckers. Repros by major makers like Duncan are generally labeled on the bottom of the pickup.

For more info on Gibson humbuckers than you probably wanted to know - http://home.provide.net/~cfh/paf.html

7.5-8.5 KOhms would generally indicate a pretty traditional humbucker, 9-11/12 KOhms is generally considered a hot wind, but the super-hot winds go to 14-16 KOhms. Given other parameters the same, they tend to get louder and more midrangey with more winds.

I love my Les Pauls - I know they get a lot of bad press on this forum, but it's unjustified, IMHO. They're great for rock and blues, but they're not just for that - some of the best jazz players I've ever known knock it out every day on a Les Paul. Clint Strong used to play one routinely with Merle. And Lester seemed to manage just fine with one, I'd say.

[Dave Zirbel]

Seems like over half the pickers here in the bay area area playing teles. Maybe a good reason to take out the Les Paul. Don't see many around here but I don't spend too much time at rock or blues shows/clubs either.

[Jim Phelps]

What Dave M said. He da man!

Dave Z, I like the way you think. When all the country pickers were buying Tele's and trying to sound like Roy Nichols in the 70's, I wouldn't have one, played my Gibson Super 400, a Les Paul, Strat, '56 Gretsch 6120 (no one liked Gretsch in the mid-late 70's) or ANYTHING but a Tele...

Years later I got into Teles, had some really great ones.

I still won't follow the crowd, I'll play any guitar I like in whatever band I like. For the right band and right money or opportunities, I'll play what the leader says to play, so far that doesn't happen much...

Glad to hear you're liking the LP, those are probably the original PU's with the covers off. You definitely do get a bit more highs out of them that way.

I think you got a great deal.

By the way, I lived in Santa Rosa in the mid '70's and played all around that area, loved it. Used to go to the flea market in Sebastopol. Great area.

[Dave Zirbel]

They still have the flea market every weekend here. really backs up traffic on 116. Still a great place to live though. When we moved here in '90 the old timer locals were grumbling about how much it changed and how crowded it became.

BTW, I still do love my '67 Tele. It's a great axe and gets used. I think I will enjoy a different flavor for awhile especially since my rock band is getting busier.

[Dave Zirbel]

Been playing the Paul at home. I can't stand to hear Fender guitars without reverb but I find the full bodied Les paul sound very tolerable without reverb. I guess that's why the classic LP/Marshall combination was working for so many for so long.

I see a Marshall amp in my future......

[Dave Mudgett]

Yup, the humbucker/British-amp sound without reverb does work well. Often, the reverb just muddies things up, although sometimes I like it.

I don't even have a Marshall right now - but have an 80s Laney AOR 50 head (think of a Marshall JCM 800 on steroids) and a THD Flexi 50 head. Those 80s Laneys AORs are generally very reasonably priced - I mean $500 or less - and very good, underrated amps, to my tastes. I got an AOR 30 combo back when they first came out - it had 2-6V6, reverb, and a real good Fane speaker - never shoulda' got rid of it. One can also get AOR 50 combos with reverb - 2-EL34 output stage. There are a few on ebay right now, as usual they're inexpensive. I really don't get it. Just do an ebay search for laney aor.

The Flexi 50 is very cool, but they're not anything like inexpensive. I was able to trade into it without losing my shirt.

With all that said, my 'reference' Les Paul tone is still Flag/Super-Session era Bloomfield, who frequently ran his '59 Standard into blackface Twin Reverbs with JBL D-120Fs. I have a '69 Dual Showman Reverb head into a Justice 2-12" cab loaded with D-120Fs which nails the sound, but it is not for the faint-of-heart. I think I would be shot for bringing that rig with a Les Paul to a blues gig at this point - it is not 1969. But a Deluxe Reverb with the JBL gets the sound at a lot lower volume.

[Dave Zirbel]

I have a '69 Dual Showman Reverb head into a Justice 2-12" cab loaded with D-120Fs which nails the sound, but it is not for the faint-of-heart. I think I would be shot for bringing that rig with a Les Paul to a blues gig at this point - it is not 1969. But a Deluxe Reverb with the JBL gets the sound at a lot lower volume.

I use a Strat/Deluxe Reverb with a K120 and the sound men are all over me about being too loud, even in a 1500 seat auditorium, and even when we open for Dick Dale who uses TWO Dual Showmans with JBL. Both times I was getting the best tone too.

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah, I agree - I get jumped on when playing guitar too, even with my Deluxe Reverb + D-120F - especially with a Tele or a Paul. I wasn't joking about getting shot for bringing a Twin or Dual Showman Reverb - they would crucify me. Even on guitar, I use a volume pedal or roll the volume knob with my little finger - my volume is a lot lower than it used to be. It definitely ain't 1969, virtually nobody will tolerate it that loud, unless you're, let's say, Dick Dale or Link Wray. I know Link's gone, but we opened for him 10-12 years back, and he used my Marshall 50-watt into a Boogie 4x12 cab. The sound people whined about my volume on 3 or 4, but when he come up, he dimed it without a whimper from anybody. Of course, I'm not complaining, he was a blast to be around.

The odd thing is that I rarely get jumped on for volume when playing pedal steel, even with a huge pedal steel amp or the Dual Showman. Of course, the volume pedal is part of it, but I think it's also partly the way that steel interacts with the music. I'm definitely laying back more and am almost never expected to be part of the rhythm section, which is a big piece of the guitar turf.

[Dave Zirbel]

I remember opening for Link Wray years ago and found that even though his Marshal was facing backwards the volume was still unbearable.

Back to the Paul, I'm bonding really well with this guitar. My fingers seems to glide over the fretboard with less effort. Maybe the flatter finger board radius and the shorter scale seems to fit my fingers better. Possibly there's a light gauge string set on the Paul too. I haven't changed them yet. Can't wait to take her out on the job!

What I don't like with the Kahler is when bending strings the other strings are lowering in pitch. Can I add spring tension to the Kahler so it won't pull the tremelo bridge when I bend?

Completely different animal than the Tele. I still love my '67 tele. I find that with the tele I have to fight a little more to hit the notes but it get's me that gutsy edgy sound.
more "vibey". I can see bringing both guitars to a gig would be very useful for the different flavors. Maybe that's why some players have a humbucker on the neck of a Tele. One guitar does it all!

Also I think I like the Gibson guitar / Fender amp combination better than Gibson / Marshall. I Like the cleaner attack and bite from the Fenders instead of the constant saturation from the Marshalls. I was youtubing Jethro Tull, Peter Greens Fleetwood Mac, etc. Good stuff but not for me.

[Dave Mudgett]

You can increase the spring tension on the Kahler. I don't want my vibratos floating at all, and especially on a Les Paul.

This website discusses Kahler installation in detail - http://www.wammiworld.com/Installation.html - and links to this Kahler parts website where you can get heavier than normal return springs - http://www.kahlerparts.com/Part_Pages/8413.htm, and there's lots more info at the main sites - http://www.wammiworld.com/ and http://www.kahlerparts.com. I think Kahlers are good vibrato systems and you probably should be able to get this set up right without a lot of work.

Les Pauls are almost too easy to play, Teles definitely fight back and are more unforgiving, to me. The Paul scale length is shorter, so I would never consider lighter than 10-46 gauge strings, and I have one set up 11-48 flatwound (GHS precision flatwound, sometimes D'Addario Chromes). I can bend strings easily with these flatwounds, and even 12-52 doesn't feel real heavy. So if you're used to 10-46 on a Strat or Tele, you might find 11-48 (round or flat wound, depending on what sound you want) OK on a Paul. Still - you need to be mindful that heavier strings will tend to float the vibrato more easily, even with the heavier springs. Most people using locking tremelo/nut systems use pretty light strings. You'll just have to experiment to see what works best. I'd go for the heaviest return springs I could find, and then see what string gauges work best within that constraint.

I like the Les Paul/Marshall sound, but it's for a harder rock edge. For blues, I bring the Deluxe Reverb. As I said, my model is Bloomfield, who I think got the ultimate Les Paul tone, to my tastes.

[Dave Zirbel]

Been playing Supersession in the truck to and from work. Mike sure has it going on. Been checking out Peter Green too. Wow! He was one soulful cat with monster tone. Heard he used Orange amps and had a "Peter Green Mod" for his humbucker in the '59 LP.

[Dave Mudgett]

Green reversed the magnet on the neck pickup and then put that pickup in backwards - in other words, with the screw pole pieces towards the bridge instead of towards the neck. So now the screw pole pieces of the neck and bridge pickup are closer to each other.

I've played some Les Pauls like that, but I would never mess with the standard approach on my guitars - it gives the smooth, high-bite sound that I associate with players like Bloomfield and Albert King. Yeah, Michael had it goin' on. Watching him at a very young age with the Electric Flag at the Psychedelic Supermarket in Kenmore Square, Boston in the late 60s was an experience to behold.

I agree that Peter Green was a great player also - my favorite of all the British blues players. The original Fleetwood Mac (the real one, the blues band) was practically in-residence at the Boston Tea Party in 1969 or early 1970 - I saw them a bunch of times, and they were fantastic. Strangely, the shows weren't all that crowded, they were still something of an underground sensation at that point.

When I think of 'holy grail' Les Paul guitars, I think of Bloomfield's '59 (whereabouts unknown), Clapton's 'Beano' (whereabouts unknown), Page's '58, and Green's. Green's was making the rounds at guitar shows a few years ago. These type of well known Les Pauls are becoming like Stradivari now, as far as value goes. It's nuts.

[Dave Zirbel]

Hey Dave, thanks for all the good info. I love the Les Paul. It's a quality instrument. I think the pickups I have a little hot though. Maybe that's the characteristic of a normal humbucker? The low end isn't holding up through my Deluxe Reverbs. The get real flabby real quick, especially the neck pickup. Maybe I need to put the JBL back in one of the amps.

Can you recommend some good humbuckers with less output?

[Dave Zirbel]

Took the Les Paul out for the first time today. Passed with flying colors. The other band members loved it and so did the wife. I think she's a keeper!!(and the wife too!) Humbuckers rule!

dz

[Dave Mudgett]

Sounds like the pickups on it worked out. If you ultimately decide they're too hot, there are lots of good vintage-style repros - Duncan, Fralin, Gibson's own Vintage 57 or Burstbuckers, Lollar, and many others make good repros. For me, the key is to tell them I want it "exactly, as close as you can, to a '58 or '59 PAF, no overwound bridge pickup, just make it sound like an old set as precisely as possible." If it ain't broke, don't fix it. A set of late 50s PAFs is as good as it will ever get, to me.

Most humbucker pickup makers want to overwind the bridge pickup to balance the output and thicken the lead tone. No thanks for me, I just raise the bridge pickup, lower the neck pickup, and that does it.

[Dave Zirbel]

There's a pair of Classic '57s on the local Craigslist for $120. Could be a good score. I ended up swapping the 25 watt blackback Celestion in the BF Deleuxe Rev for a more efficient speaker. The neck still was a little too bassey sometimes but I'm still learning how to tweak this thing on the fly. I'm used to one tone and volume from playing a tele for the last 20 years. I like the toggle in the middle position for rhythm on the Paul so I kept trying to work both knobs. I like to do the old school thing, push the amp for the leads and roll off volume for rhythm.

Thanks again for all the input. It helps to hear it!

[Ron Whitfield]

I remember opening for Link Wray years ago and found that even though his Marshal was facing backwards the volume was still unbearable.

Heh heh, MR. Spinal Tap! He was the greatest old school grungemaster.
His working guitars were up for sale not long after his death and they went dirt cheap, for such provenance.

Dave, if you have the $, check out Bareknuckle's Mule's, I think you'll be more than satisfied.

[Dave Zirbel]

Thanks Ron. BTW I'll be seeing George and Co. next weekend!

[Ron Whitfield]

Cool, Dave. Just the other day I happened to ask the guy that brought you and CC last year and there's nothing in the works for another this year = But I'd love to be surprised.
You guy's certainly did the best show of all '09, in the entire state, all because of your steel work!

Have a blast wherever you do play, and I'll be wishing I was there, for the moment...

[Robert Mayo]

It is not as an expensive restoration as you may think, the floyd bridge area can be plugged and a wrap around stop bar put in it's place, take the locking nut off, plug the holes put in a new bone nut, p-90's are great and mini humbuckers are real sweet pickups also and there ya go.