Why Americans Don't Like Jazz

[Jim Cohen]

Alvin, have you got a link to the Neilsen report on that? I'd be interested to see it.
Thanks,
Jim

[Bill McCloskey]

Jazz is not inherently "boring" any more than the Greek language is "inherently boring" to those who never learned to either understand or speak it.

This is so true, although I refuse to give up the notion that one can like jazz immediately with no prior experience or exposure.

But if you do know the language, it is so much more interesting and moving. When I see a good jazz musician I can hear them quoting and referencing all the other folks that have ever played the instrument. They add to the history with every performance.

[Jim Cohen]

I agree, Bill. Missing all of the historical, cultural references would be kinda like going to a comedy club and not getting any of the jokes. You might have a nice enough time but you'd leave wondering why everybody was laughing...

[Bill McCloskey]

In the same time frame Bluegrass (one of the biggest growing music genre in the past decade) has averaged 430 million in annual sales

I find that extremely difficult to believe. I wonder who they are including in "Bluegrass"?

Is Alison Krauss considered Bluegrass?

[Rick Schmidt]

"did it ever cross all you deep thinkers minds,
that most people simply find "Jazz" just plain old Boring"

Of course some of us jazz lovers find "most people" just plain old boring.

[Mark Eaton]

In the same time frame Bluegrass (one of the biggest growing music genre in the past decade) has averaged 430 million in annual sales

I find that extremely difficult to believe. I wonder who they are including in "Bluegrass"?

Is Alison Krauss considered Bluegrass?

Of course! Did the album "Raising Sand" she did with Robert Plant get lumped into the bluegrass category because her name is on it? I have no idea, maybe Alvin can elaborate.

[Bill McCloskey]

"Of course some of us jazz lovers find "most people" just plain old boring."

LOL!

The old Jazz is Boring line has always seemed soo ridiculous to me. Jazz covers such a wide spectrum of music from Dixieland through soul jazz, how can you find all of it boring? You don't like free jazz? How about some Duke Ellington. You like things with melody? how about some Theloneous Monk? Doesn't groove enough for you, how about some electric Herbie Hancock. Want more of a church feel, how about Charlie Mingus. Please, you can say what you want about jazz, but saying it is boring just indicates a lack of familiarity with the genre.

[Bill McCloskey]

I thought she became popular after she stopped playing bluegrass.

[Brint Hannay]

I like Ben Webster but not Archie Shepp. I like Charlie Christian but not Wes Montgomery. I like Erroll Garner but not Hampton Hawes. Do I like jazz? Is the author talking about me?

Mitch, please forgive me if my speculation is off-target, but I'm wondering if you've heard Wes Montgomery's earlier recordings, the ones prior to his (relative) commercial success? The Verve recordings ("Going Out Of My Head" etc.) do not represent the type or caliber of musician he was. It was an unfortunate sellout, to be sure, but in his defense he had a lot of kids to feed. Maybe you do know this and still don't like him, which of course would be a matter of personal taste, and de gustibus non est disputandum.

Post-war jazz has taken on a lot of airs that were not there in 1940. I don’t think you’d likely have heard anyone in the Savoy Ballroom in 1940 say that “jazz is America’s classical music”, or "jazz is an art form"

I think you're mistaken there. I'd bet good money that Duke Ellington would have said something of the sort, and did, even then. James P. Johnson composed pieces in the jazz idiom for orchestra (e.g. "Yamekraw") intended to be accepted as "serious" music.

[Bill McCloskey]

Duke Ellington didn't like the term "jazz" because he thought it was too limiting to describe what he was doing, and of course he is right. Duke Ellington's musical achievement transcends any musical genre or age. No one has ever achieved what he did, and never will. He was completely unique in the history of music.

[Mike Neer]

Post-war jazz has taken on a lot of airs that were not there in 1940. I don’t think you’d likely have heard anyone in the Savoy Ballroom in 1940 say that “jazz is America’s classical music”, or "jazz is an art form", but that type of academic navel-gazing has become all too typical in the last 50 plus years.

Mitch, I don't agree with what you're saying at all. How you could insinuate that calling Jazz an art form is "academic navel gazing" is beyond me. Geez Louise....

Anyway, Savoy Ballroom 1940--Bebop hadn't arrived yet. It all changed after that.

[Bill McCloskey]

Here is an example of some "boring" jazz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R36dxzbsU4g

[chris ivey]

i don't find jazz boring...just intimidating!

[Alvin Blaine]

Alvin, have you got a link to the Neilsen report on that? I'd be interested to see it.
Thanks,
Jim

I don't think they have an online report.

[Mark Eaton]

I thought she became popular after she stopped playing bluegrass.

Little winking emoticon guys aside, the compilation on Rounder of selections from Alison's first few CD's might have been, if memory serves, the first ever bluegrass album to go platinum. That one was called "Now That I've Found You: A Collection"

And the Alison Krauss & Union Station Live CD from 2003 has gone double platinum.

Of course releases by Beyonce or Jay-Z go platinum in a fraction of the time that it took for these Krauss albums to get there, but there is also among bluegrass/roots music fans the "Oh Brother Effect" alluding to the ballpark seven to eight million copies sold of the soundtrack from the movie "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou" which in turn led to a pair of tours which included artists from the film, many of the shows taking place in venues like pro basketball arenas.

I recall an article in No Depression magazine several years ago on Union Station and Jerry Douglas commenting something to the effect that a number of old time bluegrass fans were griping about it when AKUS started to become quite popular. Some of the fans apparently didn't like to see any real commercial success for the music which often has a clannish nature among its followers.

Back to the thread: don't you guys think that jazz, because it does require some education and commitment to at least getting one's foot in the door toward "getting" it, puts it in the "acquired taste" category like mushrooms, dry red wine, and the like?

[Alvin Blaine]

In the same time frame Bluegrass (one of the biggest growing music genre in the past decade) has averaged 430 million in annual sales

I find that extremely difficult to believe. I wonder who they are including in "Bluegrass"?

I probably should have added a disclaimer, on paper it's on of the faster growing. Because in the past decade Billboard added a "Bluegrass" tracking chart and Sound Scan started tracking all the major Bluegrass labels. Before that it was just lumped in with country sales if it was even counted at all.
Also it didn't hurt that the "Oh Brother" soundtrack was one of the top 20 selling albums of the decade, and that Alison Krauss sold quite a bit(two gold albums, two platinum, and three multi platinum).

I think Nora Jones albums, on the Blue Note Label, show up under Jazz. She had one of the top 10 best selling albums of the decade, I think "Come Away with Me" ended up over 20 million copies sold since it's release in 2002.

So bluegrass has Alison helping bigtime with sales, and jazz has Nora. What kind of duet album could those two make together?

[Bill McCloskey]

"What kind of duet album could those two make together?"

Maybe like this one: http://www.willieandwynton.com/


Nielsen may categorize Alison Krauss as bluegrass but I doubt many of her followers do. Of course, I wouldn't include Nora Jones as jazz, so point taken.

[Mark Eaton]

Even in subtracting the Robert Plant association, there are some so-called "purists" that don't consider her "real" bluegrass, but I have seen Union Station on several occasions rip into high octane bluegrass that is as "pure" as anything out there.

Of course some of these same bluegrass police might be members of the Bill Monroe school that a true bluegrass band shouldn't have a dobro included.

As for Willie, it seems to me he has made a duet album up to this point with just about everyone short of the Queen of England, and for all I know they're booking studio time for that one as I write.

[Olli Haavisto]

Norah has already dueted with Dolly on her second album, if I remember right.
So, an album with Krauss would probably be a natural.

[Barry Blackwood]

Alvin, have you got a link to the Neilsen report on that? I'd be interested to see it.
Thanks,
Jim

Jim, here's a link to Soundscan - possibly, it could help.
http://home.soundscan.com/
Also, for those of you quoting 430 million in Bluegrass sales, I believe the original dollar amount stated by Alvin was 43 million.

[Bill McCloskey]

He originally wrote 430 million (see my paste of his quote) which I found unbelievable. Looks like Alvin edited it later.

[Calvin Walley]

LOL!

The old Jazz is Boring line has always seemed soo ridiculous to me. Jazz covers such a wide spectrum of music from Dixieland through soul jazz, how can you find all of it boring? You don't like free jazz? How about some Duke Ellington. You like things with melody? how about some Theloneous Monk? Doesn't groove enough for you, how about some electric Herbie Hancock. Want more of a church feel, how about Charlie Mingus. Please, you can say what you want about jazz, but saying it is boring just indicates a lack of familiarity with the genre.

lived in the city of New Orleans for 10 years ...heard every kinda Jazz there is ....never liked a single note of it !!!!...it was BORING

[Bill McCloskey]

lived in the city of New Orleans for 10 years

New Orleans is a great city but it hasn't been the heart of jazz since Louis left.

Calvin, you find Duke Ellington boring? You find Count Basie boring? You are entitled to like anything you want, but for me that statement strikes me with same sense of wonder I would find if someone said the sky isn't blue, the grass isn't green, and the sun doesn't shine.

To each his own, of course. But Johnny Hodges playing a solo with Duke is about as good as music ever gets in my opinion. I'd rather listen to Armstrong's intro to West End blues than just about anything. Coltrane's Ballad album is about as perfect as an album gets.

[Howard Parker]

Interesting thread. I find myself nodding in agreement w/much that I've read and then groaning with the other stuff.

Here is what I see as problematic:

Back to the thread: don't you guys think that jazz, because it does require some education and commitment to at least getting one's foot in the door toward "getting" it, puts it in the "acquired taste" category like mushrooms, dry red wine, and the like?

My knowledge of "jazz" is broad but shallow. I enjoy hot jazz, gypsy jazz, big band and early bop at one level because I personally find the music more approachable and understandable. I'm able to approach these styles as a musician.

As my understanding of later jazz forms decreases I approach those styles much the same way one might sit and enjoy a painting. Different senses kick in because I just don't understand the form. I just absorb the music and let it wash over me in more of an emotional experience. Lack of understanding really does not temper my enjoyment.

My last point:

"Jazz" is such a broad term. I find it tough to engage in generalizations about any art form that's approx a century old.

On the bluegrass forums there is constant discussion about "WIBA" (what is bluegrass anyways).

So..."WIJA"?

Back to lurk mode.

[Bill McCloskey]

Speaking of Duke, I loved the 1929 band. Great vintage clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy4CL2L0ono