The Hollies.....

[Doug Beaumier]

Roger, I always enjoy reading your posts about British rock in the 1960s. I'm trying to imagine what it must have been like playing on shows with the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and many others, as you did in those days. I envy you!

I agree that one's perception of music is based on his/her early musical influences, the music we grew up with and admired. I've met people who say that 70s/80s punk rock is real rock and roll... because that's what they grew up with. That is their frame of reference. A lot of young people (younger than me, anyway) think that Grunge rock of the early 90s is the real deal... because that's the R&R they heard in their youth. I guess perspective is everything. Of course, the 60s were special, in my opinion!

[Roger Rettig]

And the '50s were.....

...fabulous!!!!

Thanks, Doug, but my perspective is coloured so much by what I heard being played by those master-musicians I mentioned earlier. If I bought an Everlys or a Rick Nelson LP, I knew I had months of study ahead of me, and that I'd be a better guitar-player once I'd absorbed it all.

The British music of the early '60s? While I liked some of it from a melodic standpoint, I never heard anything I couldn't play myself with a minimum of effort.

I guess that, in those early days, the music was being played by seasoned pros - but, by the '60s, the bands themselves were doing their own playing. There has to have been a lowering of the bar, if you know what I mean.

[Roger Rettig]

I'd like to add that I remember having a little chuckle to myself when I heard George Harrison's attempt at a Chet Atkins-style solo on 'All My Loving' - I mean, I know it fit the song quite well, but it lacked so much it terms of Atkins' own accomplished delivery.

The laugh's on me, though - I did a similar thing on an Eden Kane album track in, I think, 1963, and Eden (actually Rick Sarstedt, with whom I'm still friends today) recently sent me a copy of that very track.

I hadn't heard it since 1963, and I'm embarrassed to report that my effort was no better than George's had been, although I'd been imagining for all those years that my one was a tour-de-force!!!

None of this is surprising, really - as I said earlier, all of us from that generation were learning from those same solos on those same records; I miss the days when every American record seemed to have a real guitar solo!

[Brint Hannay]

And the '50s were.....

...fabulous!!!! :D :D :D

Thanks, Doug, but my perspective is coloured so much by what I heard being played by those master-musicians I mentioned earlier. If I bought an Everlys or a Rick Nelson LP, I knew I had months of study ahead of me, and that I'd be a better guitar-player once I'd absorbed it all.

The British music of the early '60s? While I liked some of it from a melodic standpoint, I never heard anything I couldn't play myself with a minimum of effort.

I guess that, in those early days, the music was being played by seasoned pros - but, by the '60s, the bands themselves were doing their own playing. There has to have been a lowering of the bar, if you know what I mean.

Of course, that's kind of what led to a lot of people's believing that "musical success" was something they could potentially attain. That applies to me--I was 12 when the Beatles hit over here. Much as I liked the Everly, Nelson, etc. music from pre-"British Invasion", it never occurred to me that I might be able to DO that--the musicians were an exotic world of professionals comparable to, say, professional pilots. But if a group of "ordinary lads from Liverpool" could win world-wide fame and the adoration of millions of girls by playing music whose execution seemed easily attainable, sign me up!

Not to imply that fame and adoring girls were my primary motivations--if they had been, I'd have quit in total discouragement long, long ago!

[Roger Rettig]

A valid point, Brint. Of course, by 1961 I was already earning my living from playing, so I was just absorbed with trying to improve - the sudden success of all these British groups (all contemporaries of mine and guys I'd see playing on a regular basis) as opposed to solo singers had me questioning why I was bothering!

(Or, as I recall Don Everly muttering with some asperity in an interview once:

"I turned around, and suddenly you had to be English!")

At that point I think I started concentrating less on the technique side of things and more on the girls!

Doug said that he envies my exposure to all those groups.

How do you think I feel about all you guys being able to see Elvis, Scotty and Bill, when he never even came to Britain?????? Seems a bit more exotic than seeing the Beatles!

[Doug Beaumier]

...in those early days, the music was being played by seasoned pros - but, by the '60s, the bands themselves were doing their own playing. There has to have been a lowering of the bar, if you know what I mean.

I agree with that 100%. And the shift to "bands" meant a lowering of the bar in another way IMO... Songwriting. Before the rock era, and before Beatlemania in particular, most hit songs were written by "songwriters". In the mid-60s rock bands became self-contained units, songwriting, arranging, and playing all of the instruments. Some were great at it, some were not. Not all bands had the ability to write tunes like Lennon/McCartney, but they had hit records anyway. Do the words "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" mean anything to ya?

[Alan Brookes]

Roger, I couldn't agree more. In the 50s in Britain there were always two versions of the hits on sale; the original American version, and the cheapo British copy. I couldn't understand why the "British Invasion" happened. At the time I regarded most of the British groups as being substandard, trying unsucessfully to copy American styles. What knocked the British groups out of their rut was when they stopped trying to copy others and started writing their own compositions.

But seeing some teenagers from British suburbia strutting around trying to pretend they were middle-age blues singers from the Mississippi Delta always looked ludicrous to me.
I got the same impression watching French television about three years ago in Paris, with teenagers singing rap in French and assuming all their usual postures, mixed with what they perceived as American rap postures. It looked hilarious.

[Doug Beaumier]

I couldn't understand why the "British Invasion" happened. At the time I regarded most of the British groups as being substandard, trying unsucessfully to copy American styles.

To us, the British Invasion bands had a fresh new sound, a new approach. Exciting vocal harmonies and a really cool new Look that we had never seen before. I will admit that some bands were channeling American R&B, and not all that well, like some of the early Rolling Stones recordings. Their early blues stuff sounded like a sloppy imitation of John Lee Hooker.

[Roger Rettig]

Doug!:

You've gone that step further (in your earlier post, not the last one!) - and that's how I feel, too. If we go back far enough, popular music was a completely professional business - songsmiths wrote the material, musical arrangers orchestrated, thoroughly accomplished pro musicians played the parts and - singers sang. Small wonder that Sinatra once once queried towards the end of his life:

"This is all very well, but where are the great songs going to come from?"

Of course, we've drifted a long way from praising the Hollies (who I still maintain were among the best of their era, as limited a field as it was), but as neatly worked out as their records were, it's an awful long way from Gordon Jenkins or Nelson Riddle!

I have to quickly recount this (in support of Alan's view of UK's suburban blues singers!)

I think the year was 1964, but we were on a tour on which our man, Eden Kane, was topping the bill and closing the show. Closing the first half were the Rolling Stones. Now, this was before they became huge, and they'd only had, I believe, two minor chart entries at that time. I can still remember me and Ben, the other guitar-player in our band, wandering down to the wings on the first date to 'give them a listen', as it were (we'd obviously heard of them, but knew little about what they did).

We watched about five minutes of this out-of-tune cacaphony and headed for the pub next door; they were awful by any standard. Once again, though, we got our come-uppance (presumably because we adopted such a superior attitude about it all ). Halfway through the tour, their next single was released and became their first number-one record! (This was their cover of Buddy Holly's 'Not Fade Away'.)

There was no following them after that, and we were relegated to closing the first half of the show.

The beginning of the end, I suppose.....

[Roger Rettig]

)A PS:

And isn't at least 40% of the Beatles musical reputation owed to another 'old school' professional musician?

(I know, I know - I'm a silly old duffer who should be put out to grass!!! )

[Alan Brookes]

Back in 1964 I was at Exeter University. Most of my playing at that time was at the local folk clubs, but from time to time I filled in as lead guitarist for the Oggies, a local rock band. On one occasion we were at a club in London; I believe it was the Flamingo Club. After the gig we would sit around with the other performers and jam, and drink, and jam, and drink. I don't remember many of those there that night, but I remember one of them was Eric Clapton, who was in a bad mood because his most recent group had just broken up, and he, as most of us, could hardly stand up. It was one of those nights where we sounded great at the time, but if anyone had taped the occasion, would have sounded bloody awful in sober daylight.
The feeling I got was that it wasn't the best musicians that ended up with the hits; it was luck and being in the right place at the right time. None of the musicians there was much good, but those who did end up with hit records ended up as full-time professionals, and became much better artists in later years.
As mentioned earlier, compare the Mick Jagger of 1962, who twitched around and tried to imitate his R&B idols, though he was still basically a schoolboy, to the professional artist he's become after 40 years of practice.

[Bob Bowden]

I couldn't understand why the "British Invasion" happened. At the time I regarded most of the British groups as being substandard, trying unsucessfully to copy American styles. What knocked the British groups out of their rut was when they stopped trying to copy others and started writing their own compositions.

Rock and Roll was always supposed to offend and scare the parents. Buddy Holly was dead, Elvis was in the army. This opened the door for the pop stylings of people like Frankie Avalon and Bobby Vee. Kind of hard to scare parents with acts like that. The British bands had a raw sound and drive that North American music was lacking at the time. The timing was perfect.

In the long run, the Brits reintroduced the Americans to their own music, the blues. One of my favorite comments about some of the early British blues based bands, I believe was attributed to Sonny Boy Williamson during his '60s tour of the UK. "Them English boys want to play the blues so bad, and they do...they play the blues so bad!"

[Roger Rettig]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Bob.

So did Sonny Boy Williamson....

[Doug Beaumier]

...This opened the door for the pop stylings of people like Frankie Avalon and Bobby Vee.

...and Fabian, Pat Boone, Neil Sedaka, and other "dreamboat" singers. What a dreadful era! I was becoming aware of pop music during that time and I heard that stuff on the radio every day. When the Beatles hit it was like a breath of fresh air. It was also shortly after the Kennedy assassination and the country was in a somber mood and welcomed something fresh and new. There's a very good article about it --> here.

[Roger Rettig]

Good point, Doug.

I guess I really would have been mystified by the success of the British invasion had American music still been in the hands of those pioneers - Elvis, Jerry Lee, the Everlys, Berry, Little Richard, etc - but US music had been thoroughly emasculated by 1963, so the door was wide open.

One thing that still rankles with me, though, is the fact that even the Everlys, who had maintained the very highest of standards with material, arrangements and musicianship to that point, started to roughen their edges a bit as if they were trying to emulate that almost primitive lack-of-polish that typified the British records.

If I'd have wanted 'primitive', I could have listened to Roger Rettig!

[Roger Rettig]

Looking back at the previous page, I see that I wrote:

"It's hard for me to see the '60s invasion as anything other than a jaded US market looking for something different (not necessarily better-played or sung) as well as the fruits of some very creative media marketing."

Sort-of what Bob and Doug have just said....

[Alan Brookes]

Roger, I couldn't agree more about the Everlys. I've always been an Everlys fan, and I've got all their records, even the albums they did as individuals, but they went through a phase there when they were trying to emulate people with less talent than they themselves had, and produced some of their worst albums.

...I believe was attributed to Sonny Boy Williamson during his '60s tour of the UK. "Them English boys want to play the blues so bad, and they do...they play the blues so bad!"

Absolutely. I've always loved to play the blues, but what I was playing in the early 60s was just an imitation of what I'd heard on American records. It was awful. There's no way a teenaged white kid from a council house in Birmingham is going to be able to sing like a middle-aged poor boy from Alabama, or Tennessee, or wherever.

[Joachim Kettner]

One thing I will never forget in my life is the Windsor Rythm And Blues Festival, that was located in a town named Sudbury in '68. There were Chicken Shack and Ten Years After and many more, even Slade. There was also Jerry Lee Lewis, and the rockers gave Timebox a hard time, because they couldn't wait to see their idol.
I had never seen so many Blues fans before!

[Roger Rettig]

Joachim...

Timebox?

Was that Mike Patto's band?

If so, here's their drummer in a later life - John Halsey, who eventually became 'Barry Wom' in Eric Idle's The Rutles. John is seen here on 'Rutland Weekend Television' as a part of Fatso with George H. on vocals.

[Bob Bowden]

If I had to choose between listening to Bobby Vee singing Devil or Angel or the Beatles doing Twist and Shout, Bobby Vee would still lose today.

[Alan Brookes]

I love Bobby Vee. I play his records over and over. I don't have any Beatles records.

[Joachim Kettner]

[quote="Roger Rettig"]

Timebox?

Was that Mike Patto's band?
Yes, they were booed by the bikers, who wanted to see Jerry Lee Lewis, who was next. And also he (Mike Patto) seemed to be very curageous in what he told them from the stage, because there were not a lot of security guys around!
(I knew that John Halsey was part of the Rutles).
I think that Timebox had also Olli Halsall as their guitar player.

[Joachim Kettner]

A Hollies song I think that is worthy listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-28z7bnChQc

[Joachim Kettner]

There's a new record out by the Hollies called "Then, Now and Always" featuring original members Tony Hicks and Bobby Elliot. The title track is sung by Tony Hicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q35OVuRDxVM

[Jim Cohen]

Not as cool as the pic of Roger playing steel behind "The Quiet Beatle", but I was thrilled to meet Graham Nash recently and give him a copy of my British rock covers CD, "Home, James", including my cover of the Hollies' "Bus Stop".




BTW, the other handsome devil is Jerry Fessenden, doing his best imitation of David Crosby. Come to think of it, I've never seen Crosby and Fessenden at the same time, have you...? Hmmmm...

Wait a minute! Yes, I have!!