Experienced musicians now play for the Door?

Roy McKinney · Post by **Roy McKinney** » 27 Jul 2009 5:08 am

Up here in the mountains of NE Oregon I play with a small group that gets together once every two weeks. There are 7 of us, (that is all there are out here)PSG is main lead and we have a BANJO also with us. One of the guitars plays lead also. We have 107 songs in our book now and we just play for the fun of it in one of the guys shop. We get calls to go play for Grange Halls, birthday partys and private parties. We don't ask for pay, but we let them know that they can donate to our rural school (we currently have 4 students in a 2 room school house that goes from 1st grade thru 8th grade) as we (the community)offer a modest schollership to local kids who have finished at least the first year of there college education. Guess my point is, we don't take pay, but they can donate (which they do)to any of the local needs of this community. The other thing is where we play, they must allow us to have our BEER as we do like BEER. By the way we don't have any clubs here, just a post office and a local 104 yr old tavern/cafe/store and about 150 + people in a 50 mile stretch of this river.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 27 Jul 2009 5:34 am

When a band comes in and works for free or tips, it removes that gig from the food chain and musicians who make their living playing no longer have access to it, and the club owner who used to pay for that gig is off the hook. Surely you can see that free gigs that have taken the place of once paying gigs do not really benefit anyone except the club owner.

Yes Bill, that was the point I attempted to make earlier. Undercutting other bands and/or musicians pricewise just to get the job, only hurts the industry and everyone's chances for fair pay per gig in the future.

Amateur weekend warriors with good paying day jobs often just play for fun and don't need the money, so they will offer to perform for a lot less. This only exacerbates the problem.

If you are a new band trying to get started, need exposure etc., offer to play a Sun. afternoon or say...a Monday night for free or tips.

Post a notice at the club in advance....your friends and fans can come see you, you get heard, the club sells a few drinks and you gain some experience.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Jul 2009 6:14 am

I never implied that musicians who play for the door are taking work from other musicians (although others have implied that).

Yup - I know that, but others have, especially on the earlier thread Lee linked to. And realistically, I agree that people who do a job for what the client considers "better terms" do take work away from other people who won't make that same deal.

I said "better terms" because, IMO, this isn't always about money - I have known successful bands who actually prefer a door-deal because, on average, they make significantly more money than a fixed-price gig. What a door-deal does is reduce the negative risk for the club owner. But sometimes by taking risks you can make more if you hustle. These bands hustle their butts off - they keep closely in touch with their fans, keep a good mailing list, and heavily promote their own shows.

There are zillions of toilets, wirings and computers around. Plenty for pros and shade trees alike. Look in the phone book for plumbers/electricians and computer geeks and you will find pages and pages of them. ... Now look in the phone book for musicians and bands...... There are VERY few gigs around anymore.

Et voila, there's the real problem - there isn't much demand for live music, especially of the variety that many people here play. The solution is not to run the shade-trees out of town, but to create more demand. Frankly, you can't run the shade-trees out of town - nobody has the power to do that, so why talk about it? It's a free country, and people can and will do what they want and feel is in their interest.

This is a serious question - why should someone who really loves playing on an amateur basis stop doing it? What's the reasonable basis that they must not play live music? When you answer that, then why not extend that reasoning to outlaw karaoke, DJs, live sports broadcasts, and jukeboxes, which all take away demand for live music?

Don't get me wrong - I far prefer live music, and I want to support professional musicians playing music that I like (ironically, there's damn few of them around here playing what I want to hear, btw. An awful lot of the music I want to hear is put out by talented non-"pros".) Either way, it seems to me that going at the supply-side won't ever begin to fix this problem. This is a demand-side problem, and if we want more live music - and frankly, if we don't want it to completely disappear from the landscape - I think we need to find ways ourself to make live music much more interesting and marketable to a lot more people.

In the earlier thread, many pointed out that the way to make real money is private and corporate functions, weddings, and so on, and that club gigs are nowheresville. I sort of agree that this is the way it's gone. In other words, the real money is for captive audiences for what I think turn out to be, more often than not, wallpaper gigs and generic background music. That may be a broad brush, but that's my experience with these kind of gigs. Frankly, I would rather teach math and computer/info science for a living and play the music I personally like to people who care about it, in whatever reasonable setting I can. I took 7 years out of my college teaching career to play full-time and keep a vintage guitar store going by day - it was 14-16 hours/day of music. I enjoyed it and scraped by, but ultimately concluded that it was a diminishing to the point of vanishing-sum game.

My opinion - nobody can wish away the commitment of musicians with real passion about their music to find a way to put it across, regardless of whether they're making a living at it or not. They will compete for gigs, and that's the way it is.

BTW - I think this thread and its associated link are closely related: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=163514

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 27 Jul 2009 7:26 am

It's been this way ever since there's been music. Right or wrong, there is not one thing that you can do about it. Would the club make more money if they were paying the band $200 each, no. If the "pay for the door" bands are filling the place up, that's all they're concerned with.... it's a business. Just be glad the guy is allowing live music.

The banding together of the musicians to get the price up won't work. There's always bands that won't participate. If they did, the club will just go to a DJ or Karaoke deal. For most people, music is a hobby, and they are willing to play for little or no money if they enjoy it (me included).

Go ahead and slam me, but I believe if you want a profession that doesn't have competition from people that do it just for fun.....music is not the way to go. Get a regular day job.

Most people that play golf pay to get to play, but the professionals get paid to play. It takes it all to make it work. You can't take something that people do as a hobby and expect them to stay home so only the professionals can have all the gigs.

My opinion for what it's worth.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 27 Jul 2009 8:30 am

...why should someone who really loves playing on an amateur basis stop doing it?

Yes, they love music, but club owners are taking advantage of that love of music. That's the part that bothers me. I think it's a bad deal. The clubs are getting more benefit than the performers, in my opinion.

Bob Ritter · Post by **Bob Ritter** » 27 Jul 2009 9:18 am

Doug, I guess you could try buying your own club and operate the way you think it should be done in order to turn a profit. I see in the classified ads clubs or taverns or restaraunts for sale all the time. Infact I see more bar business for sale than musicians looking to find a gig somewhere. I hate to admit how pathetic the situation is out there for most, but there always is the opportunity out there to run your own club with live music every night...Heck you might even be good at it because you are indeed a very smart musician and have tons of experience and know how most of this stuff works already....First step is find a bar you would like to buy and try to operate. Next step is go down to the bank and get a line of credit to run the business. Then come to an agreement with the current owner to buy the business...Maybe you have a band mate that you trust and can go into a partnership with and run the club together. you might even have to move to a new city in order to try this stuff in a better market....just posting on here is not gonna do anything..

But on a positive note I want to thank you once again for being the best steel guitar instructor alive today. Since Jeff's passing you are the foremost steel guitar teacher to the world.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 27 Jul 2009 10:03 am

Unfortunately, each new generation has to discover these things for themselves.

The facts are; that musicians (or bands) have been undercutting other bands since at least the 1950's, and it was (and is) the rule rather than the exception.

Club owners are the main culprits, because they don't care or have any concern except for getting a band to work for as little as possible....and they could care less about experience or professionalism. There are enough "beginners" out there who will prostitute themselves in order to work, that the practice continues.

The musicians union at one time attempted to contain this practice, but current union officers are only concerned with their personal benefits first, and the musicians last. (Some rare exceptions are acknowledged)

For proof of the above....how long has it been since you know of a union "blackballing" a club for not adhering to the local rules and pay scale?

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 27 Jul 2009 10:32 am

Since Jeff's passing you are the foremost steel guitar teacher to the world.

Thank you, Bob, but are you sure you've got the right guy?

Much appreciated.

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 27 Jul 2009 12:55 pm

Their is nothing wrong with playing music for the DOOR to make a little pigeon(Money)feed. As long as you and your band are in control of it and not cutting anybody out of work,I see nothing wrong.This new world of music-business is easy. All you need to do is create your own opportunities.I think they call that work. Stay healthy and be respectful to yourself and others and you can't go wrong unless you desire to. Our last gig as PIGOENS we didn't get paid,but,we did get 4 new sets of DOORKNOBS to cover up the PIGEON-HOLES.

Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 27 Jul 2009 2:35 pm

You shouldn't blame the club owners. They're running a business. 99.999999% of people wouldn't know the difference, or care, between the average steel player and Buddy Emmons.

The cold hard facts are that unless it's a band with name recognition that will draw people, the club is just as well off with the play for the door guys.

Before you make such a big deal out of the quality of professional musicians vs. weekend warriors, you should ask yourselves: do you buy name brand drugs at much higher prices than generic?

This all brings me back to the observation I made several years ago. "there's more steel players than there is good music for them to play"

Based on the attitude that weekend bands are taking work from professional musicians, we should discourage anyone from taking up steel guitar, or any instrument. All this is doing is creating competiton for the good paying gigs. You steel teachers are doing yourselves in by teaching people to play and selling instructional materials. If you want to protect the gigs, you should keep your knowledge a top secret.

Not meant to offend anyone, but we owe it to ourselves to look at the different angles of the situation, even those that are not self-serving.

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 27 Jul 2009 2:39 pm

I could say so much and have before but, this says it all. people die of exposure. Think of being out in the cold freezing your buttockal region off wit no food. this is figurative and literal.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 27 Jul 2009 2:41 pm

I agree with Rick and AJ. Lots of good points in this thread.

Is it just me, or is Leo startin to make sense?

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 27 Jul 2009 3:30 pm

This all sounds more and more like a converse of the automobile industry, whose product is so highly priced now that most drivers can't afford to buy, only lease, forcing dealers to come up with all sorts of hocus-pocus to move product.

That said, I've also noticed that no one has brought up the door as something supervised by s/he who could be hardly objective about it on a slower night.

So, Mr./Ms Club Owner, here's some hocus-pocus for you. Hire my five-piece band at $100 per. We'll provide (not play) a quality product and put outyour tip jar with its locked lid, which you pick up at end of night.

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 27 Jul 2009 5:52 pm

Scott Shipley wrote: Is it just me, or is Leo startin to make sense?

Scott,

Thanks for pointing this out. I've noticed a couple of LJ's post lately that I understood the first time I read them. I though it was just me, but LJ must have turned over a new leaf.

LJ,

That pigeon stuff must be working for you. Hang with that and keep us on our toes.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 27 Jul 2009 5:58 pm

You're welcome Rick.

What's that Bible verse again, "Be ye wise as serpents, yet harmless as PIGEONS."

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 28 Jul 2009 5:28 am

When I started playing in about 1978 we used to play for the door because we could make quite a bit more money that way. A couple of our good looking wives would work the door and also go around and collect tips throughout the night. And yes, admittedly things were different back then because you could actually draw a crowd at about any club. A bands pay is always somehow a function of how many people come to the venue. Sad to see how things have changed.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 28 Jul 2009 5:44 am

So, Mr./Ms Club Owner, here's some hocus-pocus for you. Hire my five-piece band at $100 per. We'll provide (not play) a quality product and put out your tip jar with its locked lid, which you pick up at end of night.

Amen, James!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 28 Jul 2009 9:12 am

When I started playing in about 1978 we used to play for the door because we could make quite a bit more money that way.

Yes, a band could do very well at the door back in those days. There were some large clubs in this area that drew several hundred people a night, and the area’s top rock bands would often make $1000 a night at the door on weekends. $1000 in 1975 equals $4009 today, according to this site.

Gigs were plentiful, and anyone who could strum a few chords could join a band and get work. There were house bands in the cities. I played 7 nights a week for nearly 10 years. One stretch of 180 nights in a row. I remember one month with 40 gigs!

But that was back when people went out to hear live music... BEFORE the internet, before wide screen TV, before DJs, before tough drunk driving laws, and before the down economy. We’re in a different era now. Stars are made on the internet, bands sell their music on line, and there are very few stages for live music today.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 28 Jul 2009 2:20 pm

Doug,

I hate to use an over-used cliche, BUT! - this time.....

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!

That is it, in a nutshell. Abstastupidly!

Like you say, in a sense, bars were crying out for bands. And if you could play a few "new" on-the-radio up and coming songs, by even more up and coming bands,
well, you (the band) were king of the hill.

Especially if you came real close to that on-the-radio song in your (band) interpretation.

You could do no wrong back then. Girls loved ya. Even if you only knew 3 pedal steel licks. You were ON STAGE. You were IT.
You may have even been, uh, UGLY.

BUT - You were on stage. With that, all bets were off.

For muffers like myself, it was a sad day, when it went away.

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 28 Jul 2009 3:06 pm

I've known of groups that played for the Door and after they build up the crowd and are making some decent money, the Venue Owner wants to change the name of the game and starts paying a set amount or fires the Band for a new Group playing for a set amount. Being most of the "Door" agreements are verbal, nothing can keep the game from changing.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 28 Jul 2009 3:39 pm

Without any question - the entire live-music landscape has radically changed in the last 40 years, and a lot of that has happened in the last 10-15 years.

I guess my point is that this isn't necessarily an "us vs. them" debate between musicians and club owners. It has changed for the worse for everyone. The plain simple fact is that the reason club owners at one time could afford to pay musicians well is that they added lots to their bottom line. I wish it weren't true, but when I see well-meaning club owners go out on a limb and hire an interesting mix of bands and pay them fairly, they often lose their shirts. But I have rarely seen a band that got the axe as a result acknowledge this - instead they tend to bitterly complain that they were "done wrong." I'm speaking from firsthand experience and experience of people I know.

Some of this problem may be because club owners don't manage well and promote their shows properly, some may be because the bands don't focus on the business side or promote their show to their fans properly, and some of it may be because the world has just changed. But I have heard a lot of scapegoating of club owners and managers, and I'm not sure it's entirely justified. I'm not mainly talking about this thread, but many other threads and much personal discussion lamenting the same stuff.

I ask this question honestly - if a club owner can't find a way for live music to be profitable or at least not take a loss from it, why should they have it at all? Hey, if you (editorial you) think they're mostly selfish idiots that don't understand what's best for themselves, fine - but I don't personally buy that argument.

Another honest question - isn't there some way to improve things? Or are we all just "victims of circumstance" and it's not even worth trying? I personally would rather move this type of discussion in that direction.

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 28 Jul 2009 5:31 pm

Hello Scott & Rick,Thanks for the kind words about me (Leo) and my PIGEONS- Harmless Poop.Since myself and the PIGEONS Band (Ron Epperson on Steel Guitar,Tommy Gobel on Bass Guitar & Mike Torrence on Drums) has been flying all over our neighborhoods with PIGEONS poop notes & working for the doors that we are creating together us one,it works. We are doing our own concert of original songs.Sincerely in Music,Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & PIGEONS Band

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 28 Jul 2009 6:30 pm

- isn't there some way to improve things?

I'm reminded of the Yogi Berra quote:

"If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em."

If people don't want to go out to clubs and hear music anymore, we can we do? If we play for the door, we make no money. And if a club pays a set amount to the band, they make no money (or lose money). Maybe bands will have to rent halls and produce their own shows. Again, the problem is getting people to come out. If they don't support live music, there's no money for anyone in the business. Of course there's still money to be made in writing, recording, and selling music, especially via the internet, but what about live shows? I'm not talking about big corporate sponsored tours... I'm talking about smaller local gigs that most of us play. I don't think that scene will ever return to what it was.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 28 Jul 2009 6:53 pm

Doug,

Sadly, for now, your assessment is right on.

This time now we live in is very cautionary. People are watching their pocketbooks. Discretionary income has just dwindled. It's an unsettling time we're experiencing. If nobody FEELS good about their personal situation, coupled with their feelings of national and world events - then it's pretty tough, I think, to muster-up a positive flow; to get out and enjoy "life".

It's hard. There's not a

I think most people just don't feel good. Even if they have some extra cash, they are being real reluctant to just go out and 'blow it'.

We don't live in 'ole happy times anymore.

It bums me out.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 28 Jul 2009 7:02 pm

Not to change the topic, but just now as I've been responding here, I'm getting a wierd 2nd page that says 'untitled', and interferes with my typing/post. I click it away, but it keeps coming back.

It has cut-off about half of my response, forcing me to re-type.

I'm using FireFox.

Has anyone else experienced this? We can move this topic to another place. Didn't mean to change anything here, but I figured let's do an alert now, while I'm thinking and experiencing it.

OK, enuff said about this, for now.