Figuring out the key on new songs

[Guy Cundell]

Well, Dave. think you are right and the sticklers.... and the paradigm is wrong and here is my reasoning.

Firstly you have to believe that music theory follows practice and not the other way around.

Next, at the base of the idea of key is that one note is the ruling note, the main tone, the tonic. So, if you hear E as the main note of Malaguena then it is because you are a highly experienced musician and that is that. The key note or tonic is E!

So what about the semantics of keys. Lets cut to the codification of western music circa 1722 with the text most influential on traditional music theory, Rameau's "Treatise on Harmony". Here is where "the rules" come from. As far as music theory goes, this text is the biggy.

http://www.google.com/books?id=TdUtrQ1c ... n#PPR28,M1

Rameau presents this text as a "fundamental law" of all music harmony and composition. In his fervor for the dominant major/minor system he ignores modal music or considers it as just being dissonance occurring within the major system. This, even though there was modal music being written before him within the musical practice that he was trying to codify. (eg. Bach) Why did he ignore modes? They were not widely used. They were probably considered ancient and primitive. Rameau thought he had the system stitched up. Easier to sweep modes under the carpet.

So music pedagogy was built on this. Much easier to teach. Traditional music education did not and does not deal well with the concept of modes.

The whole idea of music codification is a narcissistic exercise not in tune with the spirit of music. Theory has been dogging musicians for centuries. The narcissism is not confined classical theory. Try George Russell's vain attempt to codify jazz in "The Lydian Augmented Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation". Riddled with inconsistency IMO. You may as well try to catch the wind.

This is not to say that Rameau's ideas are trash. Obviously not but it is time to adjust the theory paradigm to better explain practice. Because that's what it is supposed to do!!!! It has been a major problem ever since the evolution of the Blues.

There now. I've said it. I feel much better.

[Bo Borland]

As grandma used to say MODE - SCHMODE

Sweet Home or any tune could be in any key but the question was
"If the chords are D- C - & G ..as in Sweet Home Alabama... what key is it?"

The key is G based on those chords. Yep, G has 1 sharp, the F# , not to be confused with a Gb because it's the key of G.

Papa Joe was right but for the wrong reason. It's not really about what the sheet music told you unless your playing it in that key.

It's not about the numbers 5 4 1 1 either.

Mickey said "normally speaking" the chord that ends the song is the tonic.. really? what about songs that don't end on the 1 chord.

Matthew is feeling smarter and understands everything. I love this place too.

Steve Norman gets it right with no BS

I have no idea what Guy said, I got lost at paradigme.

Mr Bovine says "If I shot a man in Reno (Nevada) just to watch him die, why am I in Folsom (California)? "
Either you shot the deputy or it's extradition.

[Steve Norman]

sweet, wadoiget?

[Guy Cundell]

What I said was "The rules are wrong and they were wrong from the time that they were 'set' in 1722". Well, not "wrong" but not inclusive enough.

The key is D mixolydian IMO.

[Steve Norman]

its also in Eminor, but I think in majors. since all the notes can be found on the 3rd fret with various pedal/lever combos, I use that starting point for learning a song. I start where the I major chord is played open and go from there. If a song is in A minor, I will start on the 8th fret which is where the relative major(C) lives with no pedals.


D mixolydian is the same as G major in terms of notes available in the key, and since the original poster was asking about finding the key of a song , In my opinion modal thinking is to confusing at that stage. From a "getting the song going and learned" point of view, knowing what the 1 chord is, and starting on the fret where the open 1 chord lives will give you lots of playable notes, along with a reference point for runs up and down the neck

In other words you can play all of sweat home Allbanannas on the 3 fret where its open position ROOT chord lives.



for a song in c major all the below are true




C Major------Notes---------numbers
Ionian-------cdefgab-------1234567--(relative Major of Emin)
Dorian-------defgabc-------2345671
Phrygian-----efgabcd-------3456712
Lydian-------fgabcde-------4567123
Mixolydian---gabcdef-------5671234
Aeolian------abcdefg-------6712345--(relative minor of Cmaj)
Locrian------bcdefga-------7123456

[Guy Cundell]

Well, you're right of course. The notes of G major and D mixolydian are the same. To get the right note set that works. My beef is that the difference between the two is the tonic note, the "key" note. Is the main note D or G? That will determine the way you use the notes, the licks that you come up with.

Sure, it is less confusing to think G major to find the notes but you won't play the same licks in this tune as you would if the key was unambiguously G major. or not?

[Brian Kurlychek]

[Head Explodes]

[Steve Norman]

Well, you're right of course. The notes of G major and D mixolydian are the same. To get the right note set that works. My beef is that the difference between the two is the tonic note, the "key" note. Is the main note D or G? That will determine the way you use the notes, the licks that you come up with.

Sure, it is less confusing to think G major to find the notes but you won't play the same licks in this tune as you would if the key was unambiguously G major. or not?

I think that on the pedal steel its less confusing to focus on the major of a song because of the nature of E9 and C6 tuning when learning theory. Later, when you really have the concept down its probably better to think in modes. When I play 6 string guitar I think in modes, because forcing minor pentatonic on every song gets real old real fast, and the tuning of the thing lends itself to modes easier.

[Marc Friedland]

I mentioned earlier that the guitar solos on Sweet Home Alabama have two totally different approaches, one obviously in G major and the other in a variation of a minor rock mode in D, so does that mean they actually changed keys within the song without changing the chords or their order. I’m only kidding, but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone came up with a theory and examples that support it.

About 12/13 years ago I went to a steel guitar seminar taught by Jeff Newman and he started out by saying “Minor chords don’t exist”
Well I may not have been a highly educated music theory scholar, but I was quite sure they existed, so needless to say that certainly got my attention.
I believe the intent of what he meant was as new students of the pedal steel guitar we don’t have to be concerned about readjusting our thinking and approaches because the song calls for a couple of minor chords.
During that day’s session he went on to explain how to make substitutes for the Minor chords by thinking of them as a Majors. So when charting out the song, if it calls for a 6 chord, play as though it calls for the 1, if it calls for a 2 substitute the 4 and so on.
My example – not Jeff’s
Like a Rolling Stone
The chords to the verse are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 – C Dm Em F G
According to Jeff’s minor-less chart we could look at it as saying 1 4 5 4 5
Obviously, for experienced players this approach is too basic, but for newbies it might serve as a good tool, so as not to get confused and frustrated over so much new stuff to learn on this complicated instrument.
I think as long as the bass player acknowledges that minor chords exist and play the appropriate changes, it might sound perfectly fine even if the steel player’s approach is from the minor-less point of view.

Marc

[Mickey Lawson]

Bo said: "Mickey said "normally speaking" the chord that ends the song is the tonic.". really? what about songs that don't end on the 1 chord.
---------------------------------------------
I'll revise that to say that ALL standard country songs end on the tonic chord; 1-chord (the key, or tonal center). You can't ignore the sound of the tonal center, that all the supporting chords are built around. When a song sounds complete and ended, it is relying on the tonal center of the WHOLE song; and it MUST be the tonic (or 1-chord). If a song does not sound quite completed, it has not ended on the tonic-chord (tonal center).

[Steve Norman]

theres a difference between pitch center and tonic note. You can play a song in a key without ever playing the tonic note or chord itself. I dont know why you would do that, but you can. The pattern below is what matters:
whole step =w
half step = no space

Basic pattern of a major scale ---1w2w34w5w6w78
This pattern applied to Cmajor----CwDwEFwGwAwBC
This pattern applied to Gmajor----GwAwBCwDwEwF#G

So I can play a song in the key of C, but centered around the note D by simply maintaining the interval listed above between all the notes. In other words if you play the scale above, from G to G, maintaining the interval above, you are playing the C major scale starting on G. In music theory terms this is called mixolydian. If you play from a to a with the pattern maintained above for the Cmajor, you are playing the aeolian mode of the c major scale. So the pattern of whole steps and half steps between the notes of a song determines the key its in. For me its easier to search for ONE pattern, that of the major listed in numbers above, than look for a modal pattern, which is a pattern within a pattern. As a matter of fact, when I really get stumped on a song I will play the major scale pattern on the 4th string only (E9 tuning), knowing that the fret where this works best is the key.

In summary, with my logic, when you tell me your playing in D mixolydian, I think, ok thats the g major scale played from D to D, or pitch centered around D, but the tonic of the key is still G, whether you emphasise it or not. This logic may not be best for jazz players and orchestra musicians, but for playing guitar derivatives it sure works great.


I actually carry around a chart I made of all the notes in any key, written out in the pattern above, with the assumption that,
1 chord = major
2 chord = minor
3 chord = minor
4 chord = major
5 chord = major
6 chord = minor
7chord is diminished
8 chord is the octave of the 1 chord

So If I see 3 major chords I can just look and see where they fit the 1 4 and 5 and know which key the song is in


If I see these chords,, Cmaj,Amin,Dmin,Fmaj,

I look down my chart and see that those are all in C maj , therefore the song can be played in the 8th fret in its entirety, so I have my bailout position set for when getting fancy fails. I get lost go back to 8 and catch back up. This allows me to improvise on a song I have never heard, just by catching a few chords. And It seems to me very few bands I play with leave the key unless its a one chord turnaround out of key, or some kind of trucker shift where the whole song goes up to frets.

I know this is a bad habit left over from playing guitar, if you know the Key just play some of the available notes and many of them will sound good, but it sure beats being confused so bad that you are hunting and pecking for each note, or hitting sour notes trying to find the mode a song is in while on stage or in the studio.

Sorry Im being long winded, I like talking about this stuff instead of doing the paperwork my boss thinks Im doing right now.

[Bo Borland]

Mickey said, Bo said: "Mickey said "normally speaking" the chord that ends the song is the tonic.".

But Seriously, songs resolve at the ending .. or they don't.. there really is no rule..
While it sounds and feels better to me to have a progression resolve, sometimes they don't.

Either an instrument is in tune or it's not. Either it is played in tune, or it's not.
A melody, riff, lick, solo, etc. is either in or out of the key being played.
It's sweet or sour. It's in or it's a clam.
There is no value judgement here.

To me .. all the rest is analysis paralysis.

[Guy Cundell]

As grandma used to say MODE - SCHMODE

Bo, your grandma was a victim, just like every little wide eyed kiddy who goes down the street to get piano lessons from Mrs Bloggs, the local teacher. She was subjected to a corrupt regimen of music theory constructed centuries ago by the ancient musicologists who buried the idea of modes in a mountain of rhetoric. But their attempt to end the ancient practice of modes is thwarted by human spirit and nature which accepts modes without reference to theory. The ancients don't count on ear players and the assimilation of music from other cultures. Nevertheless, the priests of music theory continue to peddle their half truths despite the winds of change....

This is a conspiracy!! Man, this the Da Vinci Code in music!! Can't you see it...

Oh, damn.... It's time for my medicine again.

[Guy Cundell]

But seriously, as you work out your major positions on the neck, how difficult is it to learn where all the minor sevenths are. There's your mixolydian mode and that's modal thinking.

[Robert C. McKee]

(pours a round for all) I think I'm actually learning something from you fellows. Thanks Bob

[Bob Hoffnar]

I was on tour and had a Nashville session/sideman sit in on a set. We called one tune and the guitar player was having trouble giving him the chord numbers up front. The Nashville guy just said "Don't worry. I got it. Its modal." And he did.

I personally just listen for a tonal center then try to figure what general idiom to use to find the chords. Some are: Classic country, rock,singer songwriter, modal, blues,jazz standards,swing, western swing ragtime...it goes on. Each form of music has its own little set of rules and they don't always overlap with each other. To say a progression with the chords G, C and D major is always in the key of G can leave you on the side of the road in many musical situations.

I have been finding myself on stage with bands that move from minor to major tonalities within standard song form more and more these days. Keeps you on your toes.

[Andy Greatrix]

I always think of Sweet home Alabama is in the key of D, and the C is a substitute for D7 sus4/c. which leads to G (the 4 chord or subdominant)
On the other hand, the Kid Rock song which starts out with a close approximation of the Sweet Home Alabama lick sounds similar except his lick ends on a G and not a B, like he's singing in the key of G with the chords sounding like 5411.
Anyway, that's the way I hear it and it's no trouble to play either one of these songs.

[Steve Norman]

But remember OP's question is how to tell the key a song is in, after you have established that you can switch to modal thinking, or whatever Hungarian minor diminished run you want to plug in. If you can learn a new song and figure out the mode right off, then figuring out this stuff is in your pocket all ready.

[Donny Hinson]

This happens on almost every song, I just play E and it sounds great. I told him to stop giving me a set list because his song keys were messing me up. If it were B wouldn't that be an Adim or Am7b5 or something like that instead of an Amaj?

Uhh...hard to say.

If the "theory guys" can't come to agreement, just play whatever sounds good.

[Steve Norman]

The Problem is we all agree, we just dont know how to say it.


http://www.guitarnoise.com/lesson/turni ... os-part-6/

[Guy Cundell]

C Major------Notes---------numbers
Ionian-------cdefgab-------1234567--(relative Major of Emin)
Dorian-------defgabc-------2345671
Phrygian-----efgabcd-------3456712
Lydian-------fgabcde-------4567123
Mixolydian---gabcdef-------5671234
Aeolian------abcdefg-------6712345--(relative minor of Cmaj)
Locrian------bcdefga-------7123456

This is the way that some sources teach modes but I don't think it is that useful on the spur of the moment having to go back to the parent major scale to work it out. It is much more useful to be able to know and access the sounds from any given root note. Therefore:

Major = Major
Dorian = major with b3 and b7
Phrygian = major with b2,b3,b6 and b7
Lydian = major with #4
Mixolydian = major with b7
Aeolian = major with b3,b6 and b7
Locrian = major with b2,b3,b5,b6 and b7

[Brian Kurlychek]

I don't know guy, I am understanding it way better the other way..

[Guy Cundell]

Whatever works for you, Brian. This other method is like using the major scale as a reference point. I think it really works for ear players. (Me for example, I didn't get my schooling late) With the major scale as the reference point, you can hear the deviations from it. ie m7 = mixolydian etc. You don't have to have really strong theory or be able to read in order to expand your knowledge and skills with this method. You can start right from the first major scale that you learn. I just hope this approach might be of interest to some players.


But this method cuts across traditional use of key signatures. My point way back was that in 1700 or whenever, if JS Bach wrote a piece in A Dorian he would give it a key signature of one sharp (G major). I don't know for sure but I bet he didn't call it G

[Steve Norman]

I think for E9 tuning my way works well, being as you can play all the notes in a song, both chords and scales, right on the fret of the major key. So a song in D dorian works on the 3rd fret, just as a song in eminor also works on the 3rd fret, and all the other modes of Gmajor can be played on the 3rd, which is the position where the open G chord lives. The context of this, is to give yourself a frame of reference for learning the song. Like I said before, when I play six string stuff I look for the key being minor, phrygian etc. But I really feel due to the tuning its easier to find the relative major just to have that open anchor point established.

I agree with You Guy about the fact that songs are composed in modes, but I think its easier to quickly figure out a song on pedal steel by using the major to start off with.

[Steve Norman]

I know this thread is dead, but if anyone wants to visualize the mode thing this is a great tool


http://sf.sva.ee/