Loud, Louder and REALLY LOUD

Musical topics not directly related to steel guitar

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David Doggett
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Post by David Doggett »

Saying you don't care for something and prefer something else is stating an opinion. Saying someone else's performance and listening preference is nothing but noise is a calculated insult.

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to play the race card. Surely we can discuss the ethnic aspects of musical genres in an adult way. Yes, many listeners and rap performers are now white, but the current form of it originated with blacks, and they still dominate the field. It's just kind of funny the only stuff regularly lambasted as "noise" here on the Forum is rap and Robert Randolph (who does little or no rap, and is an anti-gansta gospel hip-hop steeler). I was not referring to modern pop or old R&B. The newspaper listing is "current urban pop" for stations that play rap, hip-hop and current R&B, in other words current black popular music. Note the "current." We ain't talking about '60s and '70s Motown. We are talking about that nasty, funky stuff you guys hate. Stuart characterizes the attitude of the youngsters well.

And Jimbeaux...that's a howler, you irreverent wuss! :lol:

BTW, speaking of rap and opera, did you see Beyonce in the hip-hop version of Carmen? :P
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Jim Cohen
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Post by Jim Cohen »

David Doggett wrote:...did you see Beyonce in the hip-hop version of Carmen?
Hip-Hop & Opera, eh? Do they cancel each other out, and she sings a duet with Marcel Marceau?
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Dave Mudgett
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Post by Dave Mudgett »

At the venerable Roxbury Latin School in West Roxbury, Mass - oldest continuously-running school in the U.S. and steeped in classical Western culture and history - my very classically-trained music teacher, Master Harris Poor, started our first music class with a discussion of the question "What is music?"

After much discussion, in which many of us with several years of classical piano training flailingly tried to elucidate rules for musical composition, Master Poor wrote the following on the board:

Music - Organized Sound.

and proceeded to demonstrate. That simple definition broke down a lot of barriers, and has always worked for me. Now, what was the question? Did I hear something about "rules"? ;)
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Antolina
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Post by Antolina »

Joe Drivdahl wrote:Jim Sliff,
I don't decide what is or isn't music. That's already been decided a long time ago. I just follow the rules (yes there are rules) that people like Mozart and Beethoven laid out for us.
Actually the rules were laid out long before those two. A guy named Pythagrius (sp) did it around 400BC. All the rest folllowed those same rules as we passed through the many phases of music through the centuries.

Rap, Hip Hop? Not my thing. I can't relate to it but I have a choice, I don't listen to it.
The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.

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RC Antolina
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Joe Drivdahl
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Post by Joe Drivdahl »

Yeah Dave,
I knew somebody would say something about my "rules", but I use those rules to play by... Don't you? Its what allows me to improvise rather than just copy licks. Maybe the reason we are listening to this "crap" on CMT and top 40 radio is because we have meandered too far away from the rules; not only the musicians, but also the listeners.

Ok so we throw away the rules and what happens? Anarchy. Well then you've got what we have today... crappy, cheap music polluting the airwaves. Do some people like it? Hell yes! Most of the old time rock and roll music broke all the rules. Do I like some of it? Hell yes. I really liked that song Fergie had out last year with the Mustang she was driving. But it pretty much conformed to the rules; in fact, I like more of the kid's stuff than I do new country. Ironically, a lot of it follows the rules more closely than other contemporary music.

So what you are saying is the old rules of music no longer apply? Why not? See I can't wrap my mind around that

Maybe it’s because you guys are mostly baby boomers and it was the boomers who broke many of the old, long-standing rules. You guys are just natural-born rule-breakers. Oh well, I've broken quite a few myself.

Joe
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James Cann
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Post by James Cann »

Hmmmmm, come to think of it, being in the English business, I can't remember seeing a "Top 50 Oxymorons" list that didn't have rap music in the top ten, at least!
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Post by Richard Sinkler »

Just what EXACTLY are these rules? Can you list them or point me in the direction to find this info. Not interested in anyone's opinion as to what the rules are. I want to see tangible proof that these rules exist (beyond music theory). Maybe a document from the Berklee School of Music. Is there a document that says you can't have music with just drums and bass and a singer talking out the words in a monotone style? A rule saying that a song isn't country unless there is a steel guitar in it?
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Post by Andy Greatrix »

I find that a lot of DJs feel they are in competition with the live bands, especially the country bands. If they play loud enough, they can drive the country fans out and then talk the owner into hiring them exclusively (for more money of course!). I've also run into DJs with very large egos who think they can out-boogey any live band, country or otherwise. The owners just want to sell beer.
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Mark White
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Post by Mark White »

I'm just posting to follow this thread.
My biggest problem with rap is there doesn't seem to be any outstanding players coming out of it. Maybe I'm just old and out of touch though...... :\
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James Morehead
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Post by James Morehead »

Joe Drivdahl wrote:
So what you are saying is the old rules of music no longer apply? Joe
Actually Joe, it ain't just in music. Rules are thrown out everyday, in every aspect of life, as "old fashioned". There seems to be no accountability to adhere to decent standards anymore.
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P Gleespen
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Post by P Gleespen »

Maybe I'm just old and out of touch though...... :\
Unfortunately, I'm sure that's exactly the problem with pretty much all of us. I know for sure I am, even though I think of rap as music.
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Dave Mudgett
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Post by Dave Mudgett »

but I use those rules to play by... Don't you?
To me, the question is "Which rules?", and "When in Rome..." applies. When playing country music, I play by those rules. When playing blues, I play by those rules. When playing bluegrass, I play by those rules. If I'm playing something atonal, there are rules, but they're quite a bit different.

But when I'm trying to do something different - let's say mix styles - then sometimes you have to make up your own rules. It's art - creation. If it's "paint by numbers", ya' follow the rules "OK, put this color in here, and don't go outside the box with it." If you're trying to do a realistic landscape, there are rules of proportion and perspective, and so on. But if you're doing something abstract, you may need to define different rules.

I'm a scientist/engineer/mathematician. Scientists have to deal with real data - the rules are that the observed data must corroborate theories. For an engineer, the designed object must do what it's supposed to do, work, and so on - but there is a creative process involved - you can decide what you want something to do. But a mathematician is free to dream up anything he or she wants to. Lots of math doesn't find applications for decades or even centuries. Just an analogy.
So what you are saying is the old rules of music no longer apply? Why not? See I can't wrap my mind around that..
They apply when they apply. They don't when they don't. How's that for a recursive definition? :)
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Eric West
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Post by Eric West »

QT,

It seems the "DJ"s have a habit of "trying to show the management" that they "get more music" for what they pay them.

I've had it happen with country DJs and it's just as annoying. Had it happen in the early 90s, so it's nothing new. Then came The Macarena...

I go outside or as far from the PA as I can get.

Back to the cultural discussion..

:)

EJL
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Ben Jones
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Post by Ben Jones »

another funny thread :lol:
This site is like my very own time machine or something...a portal into another dimension.
I love it. lets see...how to put this? DJ's are pretty much always incredibly lame. Slop the hogs.
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James Morehead
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Post by James Morehead »

Ben Jones wrote:another funny thread :lol:
This site is like my very own time machine or something...a portal into another dimension.
I love it. lets see...how to put this? DJ's are pretty much always incredibly lame. Slop the hogs.
Right on. :lol:
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Post by Bill Hatcher »

I see a lot of talk here about "rules" and what is music and what is not and what is rap and should it be respected as art or music.......I did not see much about the social aspects of using music or "organized sound" to spread a cultural idea. Rap is just that. It is a culture being spread using rhythms and tones. When I hear a track talking about bitches and Ho's and killing police officers and humping your mother and griping about the evil white man, it does not matter to me if it is being done with angelic harp background. It is vile and dispicable and worse for your spirit as any other form of hate dialog you could listen to.

Rap is nothing but street thug mentality.
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P Gleespen
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Post by P Gleespen »

Bill Hatcher wrote:Rap is nothing but street thug mentality.
While some rap IS in fact somewhat close to what you describe (except maybe the part about humping your mother...), I think you're letting a few bad apples spoil the cart before the horse while you lead it to water.

Ben, you are too funny! Your very own time machine! :lol:
Patrick
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Jim Walker
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Post by Jim Walker »

Well, Ya'll can say what ya want and I hate Rap Music too but I do love to watch the girls dance to it! :whoa:

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Ben Jones
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Post by Ben Jones »

DJ's always play their music too loud. insanely loud. I dont understand it. Must be an ego thing about their sound systems? The fact that they almost always play music that is only palatable to the mainest and lamest of the mainstream doesnt help either. P Diddley Diddey's latest club banger at chest caving in volume? Sweet! smoke break time.
I love loud music...and have seen the loudest bands on the planet (Metallica's ...Jutsice tour...holy schmoley that was loud! Dino Jr...had to leave the club and go stand across the street to even be able to listen to em and I think they still managed to lower my sperm count from volume alone)..but your average dj with a crate of records beats em all in terms of annoyability somehow."Hang the DJ!"..indeed.

Rap music is almost always played at sickining volumes. The shows are ridiculous and horrible, at least the ones Ive been to. I dont know how some of those Jeep dudes can stand to even be in their vehicles ..the whole street is shaking when they drive by. I love rap, hip-hop....but they got a bit of a problem with their live shows it seems. for starters ..NO LIVE BAND. instead you get a DAT tape, played by a dj, with bowel churning sub-bass at bone pulverizing volumes. Just loud enough to become a distorted unlistenable mess live....the records are great some of em. Is it music?...LOL...I wont waste time debating that, plus no ones mind is ever changed on the internet and me telling you all its music aint gonna change anything for you all.

I remember Sting on MTV back in the early eighties saying "Rap is Crap"...I laughed hard when I saw him on MTV awards show ten years later singing "every breathe you take" as the backing track to P. Diddy's cabbage patch dancing...bahahaha!

anyway...
dj = bad
rap = music
my prefernce is for neither to be present at a "country" show.
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Ray Montee (RIP)
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RAP..........music?

Post by Ray Montee (RIP) »

Folks used to invest a life-time in their music....lessons from 'the BEST' instructors......

Thousands of dollars in their instruments....

HOURS and hours of labor/practice to perfect their musical skills/techniques.....

hundreds of dollars in out-of-pocket expenses to get to their music lessons, orchestra practices on the other side of town and/or recitals where a clean white shirt and tie were required....

and years of labor and stress working themselves up from 15th chair, to 1st chair in the violin section or trumpet section of the city orchestra.

Nowhere in music, until the HARD-ROCK & ROLLERS and the multitude of off-shoots from grunge to heavy metal got into the picture, could one ever find less talent or articulate players 'leading the band'. The public that lauds praise on these wanna-be noise makers that can do little more than dress like a PIMP and make jungle like sounds.......are equally to blame. YES, they're making BIG BUCKS, something a steel player is likely not to earn, however, I've not lost touch with reality and a God Given Talent and the ability to make beautiful music is a RICH REWARD that far exceeds any amount of financial wealth.
I'd play every Sunday for FREE at a local park if'n I could find some talented players to work with....just playing nice relaxed music, pop, country, Hawaiian or whatever. No PA's, NO SOUND MEN, NO DRUMMERS...
possibly a banj-er picker but I'll have to think more about that to be sure. It would be for our own amazement and whatever crowd, if any, that might show up.
That would truly be fun.
I've noticed that aside from music, the powers-to-be, NEVER get the dumbest, least talented or qualified individual to lead the show. But then again as some will say, everyone deserves a chance.......and in every game, there should be no losers.
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Post by Charles Davidson »

If you like rap,you have the right to say so,LISTEN TO IT,BUY IT SUPPORT IT,Just don't put a spin on it and call it MUSIC,it's NOT MUSIC.DYKBC.
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC !
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David Doggett
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Post by David Doggett »

Bill Hatcher wrote:...I did not see much about the social aspects of using music or "organized sound" to spread a cultural idea. Rap is just that. It is a culture being spread using rhythms and tones. When I hear a track talking about bitches and Ho's and killing police officers and humping your mother and griping about the evil white man, it does not matter to me if it is being done with angelic harp background. It is vile and dispicable and worse for your spirit as any other form of hate dialog you could listen to.

Rap is nothing but street thug mentality.
Well, yeah, a lot of it is. There is a lot of controversy about it in the black community. But there is also anti-gansta rap, and even Christian rap. Even the worse stuff in rap is the no worse than a lot of other stuff out of Hollywood, on TV, talk shows, and in print. I'm not even sure why we are discussing rap here. There is no steel guitar in rap that I know of.

But as long as we are discussing rap, I might as well quote myself about it from the other current post where it is being discussed.
David Doggett wrote:...seems like what you are not considering is that rap doesn't come from the European tradition you are talking about. It comes from an older, unwritten, oral tradition that goes back millennia in Africa. This tradition has different rules. In that tradition, chanting to rhythm is considered valuable music, even in the absence of melody. People dance to it.

Also, braggadocio, threats, and earthy talk about sex, in other words "attitude," is part of that tradition. That's not to say it is all good. But it is a part of the tradition, and not against its rules. There is a kind of cultural warfare going on both within the African-American community, and with the white community. Rap is a kind of public discourse about that, put to rhythm. Some of the guys doing rap claim they are just describing what they see on the streets around them. Others are exploiting it for excitement and for fame and fortune, the same way Hollywood makes movies about sex and violence.

There are other elements of black culture that feed into rap. There is an old rural southern tradition called "the dozens," where guys swap wild insults with each other, sometimes in short verses and rhymes. I remember white football players doing this to pass the time on the bus coming back from out-of-town games when I was growing up in North Mississippi.

In the '50s we would listen not only to the white country and rock'n'roll stations, but also the black stations out of Memphis and Nashville. There is a thing black preachers do where their sermon gradually develops a rhythm and basically becomes rap. And gradually the choir and congregation will interject shouts and chants and begin humming and singing. Eventually the piano, organ or praise band begins to play along and gradually the whole thing evolves into full on praise music. It might take 30 minutes to go from the plain spoken beginning of the sermon, to the rap, to the chanting, to the singing and the instruments. It is a beautiful, breathtaking thing.

When I first heard black street kids rapping, I was pretty amazed. It wasn’t as mean and nasty back then. But here were these young ghetto kids, some of them school dropouts, and they were reciting lines and lines of memorized verse and rhymes. And furthermore, they could begin making it up on the spot, and go on indefinitely. There was a heck of a lot of work and practice and skill development involved. And the rhythm was infectious.

So there is a whole different set of rules and customs involved. The whole history of American music, from ragtime and jazz, to Gershwin, to rock’n’roll - it’s all an interplay between European traditions and African traditions and Latin traditions and Native American traditions. And country music has been affected too. There are blue notes, and jazz chords, and syncopation and rhythm, and attitudes in the lyrics and vocals, that would not have been there from the European tradition alone.

Nobody has to like or listen to stuff they don’t care for. But the idea that rap is just “noise” is just wrong. It may sound like just noise to some people. But to others there is a lot in it. It's not from the European tradition, but neither is a lot of other stuff in American music.
Seems like rap might be getting a bad rap. :?
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Eddie D.Bollinger
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Post by Eddie D.Bollinger »

I play in a venue that caters to the older crowd and our engineer is also a good musician himself. This makes a huge difference when pleasing our crowd. We have 3 decibel meters (Volume meters) going all the time. 1 on stage, 1 in the audience, 1 in the control area. Classic country and Southern Gospel requires attention that leans toward complimenting the singer so that tasteful lyrics, nice fills, and good instrumental sounds can be easily heard. That is our policy that is shared with any potential member of our staff. If volume is a problem in a music venue, then a breakdown in leadership and management has occurred, in my opinion.

Eddie
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P Gleespen
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Re: RAP..........music?

Post by P Gleespen »

Ray Montee wrote: Nowhere in music, until the HARD-ROCK & ROLLERS and the multitude of off-shoots from grunge to heavy metal got into the picture, could one ever find less talent or articulate players 'leading the band'.
From what I understand, Ray has conducted an in depth study of HARD ROCK & ROLL in which he spent literally tens of seconds investigating it's multitude of offshoots.
Folks used to invest a life-time in their music....lessons from 'the BEST' instructors......

Thousands of dollars in their instruments....

HOURS and hours of labor/practice to perfect their musical skills/techniques.....

hundreds of dollars in out-of-pocket expenses to get to their music lessons, orchestra practices on the other side of town and/or recitals where a clean white shirt and tie were required....
Up to that part about the clean white shirt and tie, you've described exactly what nearly every musician I know has done, regardless of the style of music they play. I do have to admit that I never had to travel to the other side of town personally, since I already live on that side.
wanna-be noise makers that can do little more than dress like a PIMP and make jungle like sounds
Ray, either you've never been to the jungle or you've never listened to hip hop. Maybe even both!
Patrick
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Joe Drivdahl
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Post by Joe Drivdahl »

P Gleespen,
I don't know if Ray has ever been to the jungle, but Ray gets it. When we older players came up, we were mentored by the top players around town. We didn't jump on the stage and start playing over the tops of these guys because we had respect. We didn't decide what songs we played, the older, seasoned guys did. If we suggested a song that the older fellows didn't respect, we were risking getting laughed off the stage. We just played along. If we were given an opportunity to showcase our talents, we tried.

Everybody came up that way. Thats why Merle, Willie, and George sound exactly the same live as they do on the album. Because they came up through the ranks and learned how country music should be played. They followed the rules and worked on their craft until they became masters.

Today you have these hotshots who have been playing for 15 days and suddendly their in the same league with 30 -40 year guys.

Respect - is what we are missing today. Respect for the fellow musicians, respect for the audience, and respect for the songs themselves and the instruments you're playing them with.

Joe