Is LIVE music what it used to be?

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 3 Jan 2002 7:33 pm

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

at Pat Burns post.[This message was edited by Mike Weirauch on 03 January 2002 at 07:37 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 3 Jan 2002 7:51 pm

Paul, I have a question and I'm not trying to be a wiseguy or argumentative, I'm serious. No matter what view's the "posters" have concerning the state of live music in Nashville, they all agree that about all you make in the country music clubs there is maybe $25-$75 a night. You yourself said, "Anyone with their sights on surviving off of what most road and club gigs pay should go see a shrink." Now you said, "I can name players who are surviving well off of playing
music outside the country scene." So would it then be correct to assume that these non-country clubs are paying quite a bit better than the country clubs, or are these playing all kinds of other gigs and dates in addition to these non-country clubs to make a good living?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 3 Jan 2002 7:54 pm

Sorry about my typos, that last line is supposed to be:

or are these guys playing all kinds of other gigs and dates in addition to these non-country clubs to make a good living?

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 3 Jan 2002 8:43 pm

Paul, I'm sorry that it offends you that I like traditional country music with a good solid melody line. I'm sorry that I don't share your views on the melting pot of music in Nashville today. Oh, it's melting all right, melting away. For years, longer than you or I, people have been coming to Nashville for country music, not a woodwind ensemble or a piano bar playing elevator music but I guess that will be changing soon. The majority still come to hear country music but like me, I guess they are wrong also by your standards. At any rate I will continue to listen to the music that put Nashville on the map. It was COUNTRY MUSIC and that is fact, not an opinion. Yeah, I'm closed minded when it comes to traditions and institutions because I was taught to respect and preserve them. I'm closed minded because I still respect those who helped make the music that is fast being replaced. I suppose that Nashville really won't need country music with all the other types that you say it has. Hell, Gaylord Enterprise is enough to draw 10's of tourist to Nashville every year. Yep, I'm closed minded but I'm happy! Sorry, you can't take that from me.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 3 Jan 2002 9:21 pm

I realize that most everyone that plays lower Broadway does it for fun,or experence,or just to get their foot in the door.But I'm curious.Are union players allowed a certain number of non union gigs?Does the union just police the master sessions and Opry?Just curious. --bb

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 3 Jan 2002 11:54 pm

Paul Franklin, I'd love to talk to you on the forum but I was asked not to by your sister and bOb himself.I was also told by her that she had permission from you to tell me to never refer to you or anyone in the Franklin family again , ever, does she have this permission and did you tell her this? She said it on the forum two months ago. Public record. How come you can talk to me and I can't talk to you. Wish I could, I actually agree with you on a lot of your posts, not all, but-------I have fun disagreeing too. Now back to your question, bOb,may I answer him? I don't want it misconstrued as "Harrasment". ( I'm saying all this silly stuff in good humor, so please take it that way!)I knew if I agreed with Mike Wirecrotch it might awaken "the sleeping giant". Pardon me, I have to fall off the computer and laugh awhile! Is this a wonderful forum or what?
By the way everyone(Bobby Boggs too!), Paul spelled my name wrong! Was it innocent or sarcastic? (who cares)Funny stuff here!

you know who!

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Jan 2002 12:08 am

I'm not being wishy-washy here, but everyone here has made great points, Mike, Paul, Bobby,Bob, Gene and Pat,Everyone, except me, This is a great thread and I feel all you guys are correct and all of the posts here have a lot of merit. I only wish Donny Hinson would come in now and tell me whats right or wrong. He always has the right view of the situation.
Clubs in Nashville? Unless I'm playing in one, I go to Mere`Bulls,or the symphony,or one of the jazz clubs, My radio is glued to WMOT in Murphreesboro Tn. . Twelfth and Porter has good music once in a while too.
Broadway? Maybe in New york city! Not Nashville.Where I work and where I go for entertainment are two totally different places.
By the way , I also played bass on a pretty hard "rock gig" the other night,($$$)My heart is still "hard country" though my mind is always open.(and my path is clear to tread) [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 04 January 2002 at 12:17 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Jan 2002 12:10 am

BUT, I still agree with Mike W. also.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 4 Jan 2002 12:25 am

It amazes me that there is contention over this situation in Nashville, since its really just a matter of perception.

No one has disputed Paul's contention that the music in Nashville has changed and expanded, but that in that expansion, the role of traditional country has diminished.

Mike and his fellow mindset-types don't deny that opportunities exist for steel guitarists (or any musicians, really) in fields outside of trad., but really feel disappointed that the music they love is no longer as important to the folks who live in Nashville as it was in day's gone by. This is their lament.

Paul and his co-believers feel that yes, traditional country is no longer as important as it once was... and that may or may not be a shame..., but they also choose to see windows of opportunity to play other musics that they also love and enjoy, but does not fit the generally accepted role of steel guitar in our culture.

It's like one group chooses to see the musical glass as half-empty, and the other sees the musical glass as half-full. But the situation, to the disinterested observer, is neither good nor bad. It simply "is."

Back to the topic question: Is LIVE music what it used to be? The answer is most probably "no," but that could be either a positive or a negative, it's simply YHO.

Incidentally, what... if anything... is "what it used to be?"

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 04 January 2002 at 12:29 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Jan 2002 12:58 am

Oh yea? 'nother way a' say'en it! Yep!We are really all kinda' chasing our tails. Running around in circles, Herb, as ever, you said it best.
B---------

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jan 2002 3:12 am

This thread is sort of like reading a book,
My daughters use to read these "choose your own adventure books", this may be one of them ! I somehow think that the intitial issue was lost or forgotten in the multi posts. Traditional Country gigs are fading, Live Gigs are not fading, Traditional Country gigs are. Folks that want to go and listen to Traditional Country are still out there but when they go to a "scene" which is
labled as a Country Music venue they get something other than that. No Release Me, No Steel, No Crazy arms... possibly some Garth Tunes maybe an Allen Jackson tunes with loud lead guitars and effects pedals, pretty much middle of the Road Rock bands or Lounge groups playing their version of a Country tune now and again with 50's and 60's mixed in. This in totality is not a bad thing but it is if folks are coming to hear a Traditional Country band. It's no wonder that that Country Gigs, there were never a ton of them anyway, are going by the wayside. Folks are not returning to those venues and we know what happens next. I doubt anyone is actually looking to make a living playing traditional Country in a club anywhere, but it would be nice to go to be able to go out and actually see and hear a legitimate group playing tradtional tunes. I ran into a young Guitar player recently in a local music store( early 20's ?) a very good player as well, He told me he played in a Country Band and I asked him about some tunes, like Ray Price for example, He told me they don't play that old crap ! I told him I have, I could, I would and I do...play Ray Price tunes of course ! he blew me off cause I am an old guy..So In my infinite wisdom, I picked up the closest strat and played some vintage Clapton , and blew him off.."He who inserts foot in mouth ends up with foot in mouth !"
Still tryin' to figure out what all these knee thing'ys are for..TP[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2002 at 03:14 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2002 at 03:15 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 January 2002 at 03:17 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Jan 2002 3:45 am

Bobbe,
I rarely read this forum anymore but in the past you were really insulting all of us all over the forum. Since we all know you we also know that alot of the insults are real and you always try to use the disguise of humour as an excuse when confronted. That excuse doesn't work with those who know. I thought I would post very cordially to you openly on the forum to see if anything has changed between us but judging from the condescending remarks I see nothing has changed. Call me and we can discuss this farther in private. Also the mispelling was not done intentionally. I am like you on this one. Spelling is not my forte.

Mike W,
You don't love traditional anymore than I do and I would never advocate that anyone should stop loving that music. The difference between you and I is that I also love and expose my ears to the rest of the music world, you from your posts say everything else is crap.
Also Nashville is called music city not country music city. Chet and Owen wanted to create a Nashville music scene that could compete with LA and NY. Their goal has become reality.

Herb, As usual, you have said it best.

Jim,
The bands that play at the other rooms play for the door. Most can pack the place and can earn anywhere from a 100 to 200 a night depending on how many pieces split the purse and also on how much the cover is.

I'm going to Florida in a couple of hours.

Paul

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 4 Jan 2002 4:00 am

Paul don't bring your bathing suite it's 33 degrees right now as I type..Of course it's only 6 Am and It's the gulf breeze cooling us down but will climb to the low 70's sometime today...

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CJC

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 4 Jan 2002 6:54 am

Bobbe
Yeah, y'all are kind of "chasin' your tails." Of course, if you ever do finally catch it, that's when you'll... um,... "meet your end!"

Herb the Shade Tree Comic

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 4 Jan 2002 6:57 am

Herb,once again you have said it better than it could have been said. How did you get so wise.

Paul, there is no dishonor in standing up for your self or your family. I think you are right on. You go brother.

This post reminds me of an old saying we had when I was in college, "those that can do, do. Those that can't teach." I think we could apply this to some guys on this fourm so here goes. "those that can make a living playing music do, those that can't get on the fourm and complain about why they can't and how bad the music is." IMHO

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 4 Jan 2002 7:31 am

Herb,once again you have said it better than it could have been said. How did you get so wise

Bob, I don't have an extraordinary amount of wisdom, I don't think. But in answer to your question, I'd say that my approach is based on my early college career, around 1965-68, when my major was Cultural Anthropology, with an emphasis on Ethnomusicology. Cultural anthropology seeks understanding of humanity by comparing how different cultures around the world handle different aspects of their lives, environments, etc.

(please excuse the $5 words, y'all

)

Two of my professors were extremely influential to my thinking processes about music and encouraged me to become a professional picker. One was Bess Lomax Hawes, of the famous Lomax family of folklorists... daughter of John Sr., and brother of Alan. The other was Fred Katz, who was the first jazz cellist and played in the great Chico Hamilton group with Jim Hall on guitar, and Ray Brown on bass (as I recall... could be memory failure).

Both of these professors of mine instilled in me an acceptance of (but not necessarily a preference for) many different types of music.

For example, Fred's course was focused on jazz in our culture, and he had me bring my bluegrass band in to play for the class (in '65 I was primarily a bluegrasser). He called our music "bluegrass jazz," because it entailed what he called "the jazz experience": improvisation. Not that we played what is generally accepted as "Jazz," but that in improvising our solos, we experienced and presented to our listeners the spontaneity of "instantaneous creativity," which is the essence of that type of music. For Fred, there are two general types of music: composed music and improvised music. And we do acknowledge "jazz-rock," "jazz-fusion," "western swing," and more as distinct musical genres in our culture, so the analysis works for me.

Anyway, that's why I'm very acceptive of many types of music, though I have my personal favorites on top; traditional country, western swing, big band jazz, and Charlie Parker. So I'm basically a traditionalist at heart, but with an open mind.

Excuse the rambling, but then again... be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 4 Jan 2002 7:35 am

And then there are some who make quick judgements of people or situations with virtually no real knowledge of those people or their situations. - and by the way I am making a living playing music, thank you - I started this question not as a complaint but because of a simple statistacal fact. All the cities around the West Coast I used to live in and around and gig in don't have even a sliver of live music that they did have. In the early '70's I lived in tiny towns on the Oregon Coast, Lincoln City, for one; and in this town of 4500 people there were 5 clubs that had live music. Now there are 0. Even smaller nearby towns always had at least one honkytonk with a weekend band, now none. In Portland, same decline, at the Guitar Center in Lynnwood, Washington I asked where I could find a "live band", (didn't ask for any type of music)their exact words: "If there was any live music around here we'd be doing it, not working here". Same story in many West Coast towns. Las Vegas has severely faded out for live music and I don't mean just country. So, I'm glad to know that at least some of you haven't seen this happen in your areas. Yes, trad country definitely is declining. I'm sure there will be artists who will at least keep it alive. For myself, believe it or not I'm finding more work and more appreciation playing around the midwest, specifically the Topeka Kansas area, than in Vegas where I lived 20 years. There is a small theater in a very small town out here where people pay a $10 "ticket" charge to come and listen to 2 sets by a country band every Saturday night. I've sure not seen that around the West Coast. By the way, that band plays old and new country. Anyway, I'm not surprised by the variety of opinions, after all I once asked a bunch of people how my new guitar sounded after a set with a new ax, I got: 1. Too trebly 2.Too bassy 3. Too loud 4. Too quiet 5. Didn't notice it was a different one. I still maintain that live music has declined in SOME AREAS, this is a fact proven by the complete lack of venues which have live music, not some gripe by someone who "can't".

nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 4 Jan 2002 7:36 am

Quote:
"those that can make a living playing music do, those that can't get on the fourm and complain about why they can't and how bad the music is."

That SHOULD have been one of Dave Van Allen's "save time by inserting the number" categories... http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-013415.html

Nick[This message was edited by nick allen on 04 January 2002 at 07:37 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 4 Jan 2002 7:56 am

FURTHERMORE...

True, arguing over personal viewpoints is pointless and a waste of time. Bringing information, discussion and different perceptions of a situation which matters to all of us, in this case the state of the live music business, I think is not a waste of time, it's one of the things this forum is for, isn't it?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 4 Jan 2002 8:37 am

PS. Those clubs I mentioned above that no longer have live music were not just country, in fact most were top-40 rock, blues, jazz.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Jan 2002 8:55 am

Live music will never be "what it used to be". Music changes with time. Venues change. I think there will always be live music opportunities, though. People like it.

It's too bad that country music in Nashville pays so poorly, though. It's probably related to the glut of talent in that region, making it a buyer's market. Here in Sonoma County, California, the blues bands play for peanuts. Lots of blues musicians.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 4 Jan 2002 9:01 am

Hi Bobby. Wow, good ol' Sonoma County. Don't know if I ever told you I lived in Santa Rosa in '75-77, played around there in Cotati, Napa, Petaluma, Walnut-something, Concord, Sebastopol, etc. I really loved it out there.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Jan 2002 9:30 am

Paul, I don't need humor as an excuse because I need no excuse,for anything.You and I get along fine every time we see each other, the only place we ever argue is on this forum in front of an audiance. I need to work on my playing and you need to work on your humor, I 'spose, just an opinion. I think you are a great guy Paul,I'd just like to see a happier side of you and see you lighten up a little. There is no reason to be angry and mean. Be happy, I was leaving you alone on the forum and you attacked me from out of nowhere,just because I agreed with Mike W.-------and you! Gee paul, what do I have to do to let you know that this is A happy world, in genral anyway.Let up on it!
Lets go back to your sister's advice and ignore each other on this forum. Most folks love our debates but I feel you are taking them way to seriously, come on Paul,lets be happy and continue to enjoy our lives.
See you soon Paul,with a smile and a handshake, I hope!
So Paul,I'm throwing down the gauntlet,I'm showing everyone how nice I can be to you and I would like to see you return the courtesy. I'm not being funny or even trying to be,In the spirit of the times, lets show everyone how mature we can be. We both learned diplomicy from Maurice, lets apply it. I'm waiting for your last reply,Best wishes. God love America!
Bobbe

(edited for spelling only) [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 04 January 2002 at 09:33 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 Jan 2002 9:49 am

Bobby Lee, You nailed it right on the head!Your last post said it all,short and to the point, AND 100% accurate.We could have saved so much time if you would have posted sooner!
Where have you been? Refereeeeeeing fights?
We all appreciate your job, I couldn't do it,Or would I want to.Great forum bOb! I'm going to get the Weirach towell now !
R.K.S. III