Relevance of Instructional Materials

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Nov 2005 4:34 am

Jim I am trying to agree with your point, but I beleive you have missed the big picture.

Teachers, such as Joe Wright, Herb Steiner Jeff Newman , who produce materials and packages first write them for the main stream of the MINIONS. And they did..and they do.

It's a business , not a hobby.

If folks are not buying them, and then not even using thme to get to the next level, what are we expecting ?

What are they to do ? Invest more time and energy and $$ when the mainstream material is still sitting ?

A musician who learns music..if they actually learn it, can apply what they learned to any genre...

Country uses C, F, and G..so does Rock, Blues and Jazz..

I learned how to say words when I was very young ( barely though) I then learned which ones I needed to use in different conversations.( also just barely)

Same with music, you learn the notes or phrases, then you apply them.

If you have a desire to play Classical, play Classical..why do we need a Classical Tab program ?

The answer is really quite simple..

IF someone believes there is a market for tabbed programs for a different genre..then THEY should produce it. NOT expect someone else to do it for them.

Learn the MUSIC first..then apply it as you see fit.

The biggest problem as I see it , and this is not just STEEL related, is that most learn how to play but don't bother learning what it is they are actually playing.
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 November 2005 at 04:38 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Nov 2005 5:42 am

I guess this thread is getting long for a reason, but I'm not sure I see why--yet.
I'm thinking of the great volume of music instruction books available, and it's mind-boggling.

'Birds of Fire'--what a great work.
'A Lotus on Irish Streams' could have been transcribed for a piano or guitar beginner, and I would have loved to have that instead of Rainbow Dance, the Little Windmill (I'm making titles up, for all the little original piano pieces that have one note in the right hand, one note in the left).

Point being what's already been cited; the author would have to pay for the rights to use it; so he writes his own, as teaching the notes, timing, and expression is the function of the beginner's piece. It's boring to the beginner, but even a sixth grader knows why that's the way it has to be, and perseveres until he can move on into better pieces.

The teacher has the music store order enough copies for the class. The store doesn't carry everything that's available.

And if the teacher doesn't find material that's good enough, he can write out his own. Boy, would that be time-consuming.

So I have to be amazed at the amount of energy that Joe Wright, as an example, as devoted to a great body of work. That sort of dedication--wow, is all I can say.

So somebody would have to show the music store why stocking his, or Wally Moyers', material would be a commercially feasible.
But without doubt, I could learn more from these two sources than I'm even capable of imagining.

So, it's really silly to say

for Bobby, who still thinks I want everyone to lose money producing stuff only I would buy....

because b0b probably has more material available than anyone else.

In short, if I don't like what's available, I'd write my own, for my own use.

It just doesn't do any good to complain about what's not available in the marketplace; it's up to some individual to fill the gap rather than waiting for someone else to imagine a gap and then fill it.

I'm trying to keep this impersonal, but it's difficult, Jim; and I realize that singling you out is making it personal, but it seems most of this thread has been about you. And if we don't seem clear about what you're trying to say, it's because we're not.

Mike Perlowin, for example: there are few forumites who share their experience so readily--or should I say, there are many, but few whose experience is so accessible.
A book on theory, two commercially available albums--I can hear the results of his studies.
But there are many who talk the talk, and I can't see through the words to how they've walked the walk. The ones who do the walk are the ones I look to. The list is long, and I've read about more sources in this thread than from any other resource--and any of them could teach me volumes.

If I don't seek it out, that's my problem.
And if I criticized any of them for what they haven't done for me, that'd be a big my problem.

It's easy to bemoan what's not available, or the demise in the popularity of the pedal steel (and I can't see that; I think it's really expanding its scope).

But to change it--that'd be up to me.
Or you.
I can't see the validity of criticising what's available, the sources or the purveyors.
Like the beginning piano student, what you do with it is up to you, not the teacher, the music publisher, or the piano store.

And for sure, it's not up to this forum.

Me, I'm looking for instruction on how to play dissonant music that's never been heard before. I want to play it really bad.

Can someone help me find some music instruction that's really bad?
[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 09 November 2005 at 05:54 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Nov 2005 6:03 am

Toy, I'll say it again - you completeyl missed my point as well.

Everyone please read: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR NOR EXPECTING THERE TO BE DEDICATED INSTRUCTIONAL MATERIALS IN ROCK OR BLUES.

OK. We got that out of the way for about the 10th time. People keep making the assumption that's what I'm asking for, which I didn't.

Please read my last few posts beforre replying to me. They summarize - again - what I'd like to seee, which is what this thread wwas about, I thought:

1. Updating of current commercially available materials

2. More of a "breadth" of instruction - inclusion of more non-traditional materials.

That's as brief as I can make it. It's not all that earth-shattering.

Update things, widen the horizons and the market for both materials and instrument will expand.

And again - Nice to know Joe Wright's stuff is available - but it's not to the average music store customer. THOSE are the materials I'm discussing primarily - the off-the-shelf-things most people get started with...or don't buy because they're 20 years old.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Nov 2005 6:25 am

The good news:

“A Lotus on Irish Springs”: http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/MclaughlinBook/Irish.JPG
All the McLaughlin pages, click on the picture and root around, (#6 – Music, Tabs, and Midi Files): http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/mclaughlin/

The bad news: you have to read music.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Nov 2005 6:54 am

Okay, Jim, now that we're... hopefully... all clear on what you AREN'T expecting from creators of steel guitar instruction courses, I'd like to ask what you ARE asking for, using more specific examples than simply

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1. Updating of current commercially available materials

2. More of a "breadth" of instruction - inclusion of more non-traditional materials.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These two suggestions are pretty vague. Other than "different than what's out there now," the collective "we" in the steel product business don't really know what new paradigm you're seeking.

I ask my private students what they want to learn, styles, tunes, etc. If I can help them out using my fields of expertise, I do; otherwise I send them elsewhere, if there is an "elsewhere."

So, I'll be a proxy for those in this thread who are interested and ask you the same question, to wit:

Specifically, what songs, styles, and non-traditional materials are you seeking, besides the aforementioned Johnny B Goode and Stairway to Heaven (both of which I find hopelessly dated, by today's standards of modern music ;

?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 November 2005 at 06:57 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Nov 2005 7:05 am

"Stairway to Heaving."

Now that'd be really bad.

Funny thing about transcriptions, Dave.
Each of those Bb's on 'Lotus...' are a mere representation an entire phrase of 32nd notes. Bullets of eternal bliss, indeed.

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 9 Nov 2005 7:27 am

I'll defend the 'Stairway to Heaven' thing.

If someone wrote a good book today, the songs would probably be outdated in a short time, so 'what to do'? I was somewhat impressed with the number of "rockers" in my regular 6-string guitar class who were trying hard to learn that song above. My evaluation...it was considered 'rock' I suppose, but the melody was so pretty that even grandma would like it. Those rockers could learn a 'pretty' song without shame. All a book really needs to do is offer a variety of styles of music in songs that are pleasing to the general public ear. Hopefully that would make learning the theory part of understanding how those songs are put together more pleasant for the time being (learning) and then those theory principles learned could be applied to the particular style of songs the student likes, all by himself. I can see that all those books starting with that very simple 'Ode To Joy' was smart, but really, we can do better, no?

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Nov 2005 7:48 am

I was actually sort of kidding about "Stairway", I love Zeppelin, but I sure have heard that song a lot... I don't play E9th so the worth of my opinions is limited, but if I were trying to sell a rock book, I would absolutely want "Stairway", "Hotel California" (chords and guitar melody), "Every Breathe You Take" (this is a cinch in C6th, at least), "Gimme Three Steps", "Layla", etc., just good, strong melodic songs. Would Carter tell you how many Starters they sell, to what age groups? Assessing your market first is actually thought to be a good first step, by people who think about those kinds of things.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Nov 2005 7:52 am

Jim, your main argument seems to be (and forgive me if I get it wrong again - you write more than I have the patience to read) that your local music store isn't carrying modern steel guitar courses. I'll be the first to admit that some of the Mel Bay stuff is old. Does your store carry the stuff from Homespun Tapes? If not, why not?

Or maybe you consider Bruce Bouton, Cindy Cashdollar, Bob Brozman and The Campbell Brothers to be additional examples of "outdated" music.

By the way, Mel Bay just discontinued "Anthology". Maybe you got your wish. I think it's a shame, though, because the material in that book is very good, and it included written notes with the tab. With a CD and a retail price of just $25, it was one of the best deals out there, IMHO.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Nov 2005 8:14 am

Herb – Jeremy Moyers posted a good description of a viable approach; “in the style of_______”. Fill in the blanks with Clapton, B.B. King, CSN, Dire Straits, The Beatles, the Stones, Death by Stereo, Chuck Berry, Nirvana, The Descendants…there are many possibilities. But generally, they fall into the major and minor pentatonics and blues scale, plus rock/blues rhythm. I’m not suggesting *replacing* country instruction with this stuff – just enhancing materials by adding some different things that would cover more ground than strictly country or campfire songs I sang 45 years ago that aren’t used much anymore. Can we start there and discuss the possibilities?

Bobby – no, stores around here don’t carry those videos. The only one I’ve seen is the Bouton one, which didn’t really interest me with it’s description of learning “Nashville-style pedal steel” – that immediately limits the scope in my perception to all-country. I might be wrong, but I can only go by what the package says…

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 9 Nov 2005 9:15 am

Wow, I'm impressed that you found a store around here that caries anything to do with PSG! I'm not surprised that if a store was to carry one or two titles it would be the Winnie Winston book, because it's the most well known. Why are you trying to find instructional materials at a store in southern California? That just sounds like a frustrating lo0sing proposition to me. I apologize if I've missed something in this thread, but have you looked at what available on-line? There is a lot of stuff out there.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 9 Nov 2005 9:23 am

I think I could handle tabbing out "Smoke on the Water" if anyone is interested.

I read some where that Richie Blackmore said he was always nervous touring the US south, particularly Nashville, because the country players there were so much better than the players in the rock world.[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 09 November 2005 at 09:24 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Nov 2005 11:00 am

I can play every steel part from every Beatles record, note-for-note.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 9 Nov 2005 11:04 am

Cliff,

I imagine Jimi Hendrix avoided playing anywhere near a Jimmy Bryant gig back in the 60's as well. Hendrix was a slow as cold molasses compared to Jimmy Bryant. IMO, neither Hendrix, Clapton, Page or Blackmore could hold a candle to Bryant when it came to speed, feel and precision. Luck for them, he wasn't very well known to the general public - but they sure knew who he was.[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 09 November 2005 at 11:06 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Nov 2005 11:38 am

"I can play every steel part from every Beatles record, note-for-note."

But can you play every Beatles song note-for-note on steel?

Do you see the difference?

Bobby, your post seems to sarcastically imply that we should leave steel out of music if it wasn't there to start with. My question to you - why?

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 9 Nov 2005 11:59 am

Hey Chris, yea, Jimmy Bryant rocks! I get a little depressed listening to Jimmy and Speedy sometime....makes me want to haul my guitars down to the pier and throw them in those guys are sooooo dang good! Can you dig Speedy and Jimmy's versions of "Old Joe Clark" and "Arkansas Traveler"? Dig those moldy figs, Baby!
Check it out, Dude.[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 09 November 2005 at 12:38 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Nov 2005 12:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"I can play every steel part from every Beatles record, note-for-note."
But can you play every Beatles song note-for-note on steel?

Do you see the difference?

Bobby, your post seems to sarcastically imply that we should leave steel out of music if it wasn't there to start with. My question to you - why? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My point is that steel "in the style of the Beatles" is absurd on its face. There's no steel in Beatles music, so any "style" would likely be adapted from some other kind of music.

How about "oboe in the style of Eric Clapton", or "marimba in the style of Chuck Berry", or "trumpet in the style of Jimi Hendrix"? I'm not saying that these things couldn't been done. They're just not commercially viable on the scale you're talking about.

BTW, I can play any Beatles song from the sheet music if I need to. So yes, I can play them note-for-note. That's the route I would recommend to a student who wants to learn Beatles tunes.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 9 Nov 2005 12:34 pm

At the risk of hijacking the thread-then I will cease and desist:

I appreciate Jimmy Bryant's chops and technical mastery of the guitar-but if I had to choose between he and Jimi Hendrix for cd's to bring to the proverbial desert island-Bryant is going to be left behind.

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Mark

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 9 Nov 2005 12:40 pm

Okay, but I bet Jimi would take some Jimmy Bryant with him, along with some vintage Buddy Guy, of course.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 9 Nov 2005 12:44 pm

bOb, I'm glad that the thread came around to your last post. As a kid in the 60's taking lap steel lessons, I woke up one day and realized that I was getting pretty bummed out being handed sheet music each week for old country songs (though I did love a lot of them: Hank, Ernest Tubb, Patsy Cline, etc.), Hawaiian, and southern gospel.

I asked for sheet music from the Beatles and the Stones and before long I was banging out basic versions of Michelle, Please Please Me, Satisfaction, etc.

Of course I was much better at sight reading music than I am now, all these years later- because like a lot of us here, becoming an adult got in the way of staying up with playing music for a long time-but having that ability transcended the limitations of instrument specific
learning materials.

I cut my teeth on Your Cheatin' Heart, The Hawaiian Wedding Song, and Nearer My God to Thee.

I turned my back on most of it except for the Your Cheatin' Heart type stuff, but now have come back around to the Hawaiian and the gospel too.

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 09 November 2005 at 12:47 PM.][This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 09 November 2005 at 12:50 PM.][This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 09 November 2005 at 12:53 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Nov 2005 1:50 pm

b0b, I think you might be missing the mark - i.e. all the "pickin' on the (Beatles, Stones, Eagles, etc) CD's that are sold, where a bluegrass band plays rock songs. I think you're dismissing the idea far too quickly when the precedent has already been set, albeit not with steel. And "in the style of" means playing close facsimilies of the songs - it's already done with standard guitar...why can't the licks be adapted to steel?

Fact - they can.

There is NO reason steel arrangements couldn't be worked out for the real songs either - and it's not as absurd as your oboe or marimba suggestions indicate. Just because the steel's not there now doesn't mean it can't be in some cover band (actually, I've heard cover bands with steel do such material).

Check out Flea Market Music - Jim Beloff has a wide selection of books that have actual songs from the 60's...including Beatles tunes...arranged for ukelele. a truly wide range of material - Surf songs, Dock of the Bay, various Motown hits. Do you think there's a huge market for that?

If he can do it, why can't the teachers in the steel community do it?

"BTW, I can play any Beatles song from the sheet music if I need to. So yes, I can play them note-for-note. That's the route I would recommend to a student who wants to learn Beatles tunes."

Fine for sight readers...but most steel and guitar players don't read music from what I've seen. And that doesn't help the beginning student with educational methodology in a breadth of styles outside country.

It seems to boil down to this - what is the source of your resistance to it?

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 09 November 2005 at 01:54 PM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 9 Nov 2005 2:18 pm

Dave......... I have all the music to birds of fire(the entire album) in a book warner tamerlane published in the 70's. Really interesting. He suggests modes for solos based on astrological signs on a couple of tunes. Yuo should see the sheet for Saphire Bullets Of Pure Love. Celestial Terrestrial Commuters aint to bad though. About 10 years ago I was in a band that did that song and the steel player at the time did a great solo on the trades. He seemed to think it was kinda steel friendly.

Jim........ Which books are you encountering in music stores? I have never seen any around here. I get your drift, it would be cool if they would include some examples of how to use the steel in different styles,such as rock and such. I think it might be a problem to come up with a new edition of some of these materials though. The companies that produce them might not find it to be cost effective. Probably alot of folks here have some insight too.Try asking some specific questions about those styles and see what you get. I would be very interested to know as well. All I do is reharmonize the things I already know for different applications. There is probably ultimately more to it than that. Anybody?

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Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 09 November 2005 at 02:28 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Nov 2005 3:02 pm

It seems to boil down to this - what is the source of your resistance to it?

Resistance to what?

I've been following this thread pretty well, but I gotta drop out now. It's trying to turn into the kind of conversation you can only have face to face, in real time.

Besides, Ed Packard is posting some really good instructional materials about U-14, chord charts and the like.
It seems to have all the chords for playing any song you like.

Good luck.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Nov 2005 3:07 pm

What's the string spacing like on a U-14? Seems like it would be incredibly tight.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Nov 2005 3:10 pm

Moderator, please close this topic.