Promat $8000

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 20 Apr 2005 9:05 am

Damir,

Having two of them is convenient. But can you make any one of them sound anything like Bobbe's playing??

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 Apr 2005 12:57 pm

John I know you wouldn't sell either Red or Blondie...
.
But I ALSO know YOU would love a Promat.
100% sure.

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 20 Apr 2005 1:03 pm

David,

I think John already ordered one.

Ron

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 20 Apr 2005 4:32 pm

tb,

no one can make a push pull guitar sound like Bobbe can.I couldn`t play like Bobbe if I had 10 Promats.

Db

ps
but I can still sound like me tho

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 20 April 2005 at 06:34 PM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 3 May 2005 12:24 pm

Damir, When did Mr. Papsic make hist first promat? Also, was it a push pull? tbh

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 3 May 2005 5:22 pm

tb,

I saw first Promat in 1988,when was the first actual guitar made I wouldn`t know.I would guess late 70`s or early 80`s but that is just my guess.

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 4 May 2005 8:13 am

If he was making these guitars in the 70's, that would coincide with Emmons building them too. What would one of the current builders think about this practice? I think I'd be a little bit ticked about that one. I'm with Terry when it comes to Mr. Papic not leaving his mark on the guitar. Does that look like he didn't think he could improve on the original Emmons guitar? If the parts are interchangable then it's a copy or clone if you will.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 4 May 2005 1:38 pm

Thank God.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 4 May 2005 4:34 pm

Despite the obvious fact that the current Promat is very similar to the Emmons, so much so that some consider it a "copy", there's no information given that indicates the guitars built in the '70's were as closely modelled after the Emmons, the ones from the '70's may have been more like a Sho-Bud for all we know.

And even if the '70's Promats were nearly identical to the '70's Emmons, why would it be such a big deal? Did the few handmade guitars that Mr. Papic built then cause problems for Emmons?

Why is it OK for every cheap guitar company to build copies of Tele's, Strats, Les Pauls, ES-335s, L-5, Martins, etc. and get away with it (yes I know now they have to have a different headstock profile, big deal!) and so much BS is made out of a steel that's like an Emmons P/P!?

There are only a few steels built that are radically different than anything built before, so where would one begin to start the lawsuits in who copied who?

If Emmons isn't worried about Mr. Papic's design being too similar to the old Emmons P/P, why is anyone else?[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 04 May 2005 at 05:38 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 4 May 2005 4:57 pm

and I tought guys would be glad to have another great guitar on market to buy.As far as I`m concern you can call it anyway you want it, still wont change the fact that it is a great sounding guitar,how you call it or do you like it or hate it I can care or less.I got mine and that is what I care about.This clone/copy talk is like beating a dead horse all over again.It is simple,who doesn`t like it - don`t buy it, if you like it, get one and enjoy.

Db

------------------

"Promat"
~when tone matters~
http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne2/PROMAT.html

Randy Gilliam · Post by **Randy Gilliam** » 4 May 2005 8:21 pm

Their are 4600 Plus Forumites thats only 2.00 dollars U.S. of course Each. Lets buy one And Time share It. Texas Steelers get too try it first.We will let you know if it is worth it . Then you can buy your own.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 5 May 2005 10:04 am

If I had the choice between a used Emmons push pull for $2500 from Bobbe or a Promat for $8000. Guess what I would go for the emmons and not even consider the promat.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 May 2005 10:35 am

What would be the deciding factor, TB; your finances or your prejudice?

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 5 May 2005 11:30 am

Good point Jim! TB has shown his a$$ from the first post on this thread. Who cares what something costs! If a person wants it, They'll buy it at whatever the cost. If they can't afford it, don't want it or think it's too expensive they'll walk on by or at least that is what a NORMAL person will do!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 May 2005 12:02 pm

Basically Bobbe has taken on the tasks of importing these steels,
and all the ancilary costs and paperwork hassels
pertaining to importing anything of size,
and price coming from the eurozone these days.

It is not that the Promat is priced out of the market, but that the exchange rate is WAY out of whack. 30% out of whack.

If you really wanted one, you could fly over,
see a beautiful country, pay the last installement
on your instrument ,and bring it back as luggage,
for a quite reasonable price.

But of course there is over weight charges etc.
So best done as a couple splitting wieght charges and having a nice vacation too.

Gee dear, would you mind a week in europe with me...
while I buy a new guitar..
Sounds a good way to make a wife happy too.

Or you can let Bobbe deal with all the BS,
and have it turnkey delivered.

So pay for that extra service and exchange rate or not.
We ratified this style of fiscal prudence last fall..
so we must live with it for the time being.

As I understand it, Mr. Papic has a waiting list,
and makes steels as fast as he can.
and they are gone when finshed.
No one who has actually tried one has ANY negative things to say.

So I doubt he REALLY cares for a few who gripe...
just to gripe.

There are those who will pay $300 for Manolo Blahnick shoes.. they know what they want and are willing to pay for it.
I could be happy in Keds, but like my lady in the Blahnicks![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 May 2005 at 01:05 PM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 5 May 2005 12:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you really wanted one, you could fly over,
see a beautiful country, pay the last installement
on your instrument ,and bring it back as luggage,
for a quite reasonable price.

But of course there is over weight charges etc.
So best done as a couple splitting wieght charges and having a nice vacation too.

Gee dear, would you mind a week in europe with me...
while I buy a new guitar..
Sounds a good way to make a wife happy too.

Or you can let Bobbe deal with all the BS,
and have it turnkey delivered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...or Bobbe will fly over with your wife, make her happy, and do all the paperwork...as long as it was the guitar, and not your wife, that was causing the overweight charges...

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 May 2005 12:31 pm

HA!

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 5 May 2005 3:03 pm

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 May 2005 6:23 pm

Pat, yea, I could work that in, I 'spose,

A guy came into the store last week and said: "I need a steel guitar for my 18 year old daughter", I said, fine, sounds like a good trade to me, lemme see your daughter,

( Burummmmmp, wheres my drummer?)

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 5 May 2005 7:01 pm

I think what it comes down to for most of us is that we can barely come up with enough even for a cheapie, and when one goes for insane money like this it is kinda frustrating. I want to get good and get a good tone, but this instrument is not for the faint of wallet; That's why there are few young players taking it up, and those who do end up with second rate instruments and soon give up because they sound like dreck. I am sticking to non-pedal as my primary instrument for almost totally economic reasons; I would have to sell my car to get the funds for a good sounding instrument. Depressing? Hell yes, it's depressing. But it is reality, and to quote an old preacher I knew, "you gotta dance with the one what brung ya".

------------------
Sierra S8, Gibson GA30RVT, Peavey Delta Blues, Regal Dobro heavily modified, Teese RMC2 Wah, Proco Rat, pyrex and bakelite bars

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 5 May 2005 8:06 pm

Keith, I know this post is going to get you ticked off at me, and believe me I'm sorry about that because I have nothing against you. You called it like you see it, and I have to do the same.

Everything you just posted strikes me as nothing more than lame excuses. They sound reasonable, and could be if a person is content to accept their situation and make no effort at all to overcome it, and that's why it's just excuses.

First,

1. "when one goes for insane money like this"

Insane? Ok, it's higher than many steels, and as previously posted several times, the Euro/dollar exchange rate is more responsible for that than anything else. Don't some people read the previous posts before posting?

Besides that, have you guys priced other instruments besides pedal steels lately? Price a grand piano, harp, violin, viola, cello, anything like that. That will make the Promat look pretty cheap.

2. "That's why there are few young players taking it up"

Nope. There are few youngsters taking it up because the steel has been stuck with the stereotype of a Hawaiian & Country Western instrument for years, thanks to the efforts of many who are right here on the forum. Just post something about Robert Randolph if you doubt that. Now that RR's the big thing for the kids, more of them are getting into steel.

3. "and those who do end up with second rate instruments and soon give up because they sound like dreck."

If they're going to give up, it won't be because of their instruments, it'll be because the majority of all people who decide to take up an instrument give up. Only a few stick with it to become proficient. If someone's really into an instrument and the one they've got isn't cutting it, they'll do their best to improve it so it'll do while they do whatever they have to to get a better one.

Most of the pros didn't start out on new Emmons, Sho-Buds, Promats, MSAs either! Most started out on cheap lap steels, as I did. I'm sure I "sounded like dreck" when I started, and it wasn't the fault of the lap steel. Put an expensive new steel in a raw beginners' hands and he's gonna sound like dreck anyway, on anything.

As for price, a decent beginning pedal steel can be had new for around $700, the Carter Starter. There are used Starters as well as used single-10s of other makes that would be fine for beginners, for $500 and up. Don't tell me anyone who really wants something can't raise between $500-$1000. Kids have been taking part-time jobs as long as there have been kids, for anything from bicycles to motorbikes, cars, and putting themselves through college. Any kid can't raise the money for a used steel, isn't interested in trying.

You say you're sticking to non-pedal steel because you can't raise the money for a "good-sounding instrument". What do you consider good and how much does it cost? So, if a person can't afford a new Zum, Emmons, Fulawka, Promat or something like that, then no pedal steel at all is better? Well, what can I say.... everyone's got a right to their own opinions and choices, no matter how little sense they make!

I quit my "real" job 5 years ago and I barely have 2 nickels... ah, pesos... to rub together anymore. I don't have the money to buy a new steel of any kind, let alone a Promat, so I'll just have to make do with my old MSA. BUT, if I didn't have the MSA and had no pedal steel and really wanted one, I could find a way to get it and I believe so could most people. And I mean legally.

I have other things I could sell to help raise the money. We could put away a few bucks here and there until I could get something decent, even if it wasn't a Promat or Zum.

I DON'T BUY the EXCUSES that pedal steel is too expensive for anyone to get into. I bought the old MSA I'm playing now, from Bobbe Seymour with the last $1000 I had left from our savings, because I had to have a steel for a band I had just joined to play full-time. (I'd sold my Sho-Bud D-10 13 years earlier). Nobody ever complained about "that bad-sounding cheap old MSA" either. I'm sure it doesn't have the kind of tone of a Promat, but it doesn't sound bad and I didn't have to sell my car to buy it.

By the way, I have soundclips at my website, played on that same first lapsteel and this $1000 MSA. I know I'm not a great player, but you tell me if the steels sound so bad I shouldn't have got them, and should rather not play them at all. www.jimphelps.com

If a kid can save up for a mini-bike, a regular guitar or old used car, and they do it all the time - then he/she can save up for a decent used pedal steel. Anyone can if they really want it.

The fact that a lot of us can't afford the Promat, doesn't mean that it's overpriced. I can't afford a Mercedes or private jet or a lot other things either, but I'm not yelling that they are priced insanely. These things are priced for the cost of the parts and workmanship put into them. Some of us can't afford them, that's too bad but don't blame the guys who can or the guys who work their butts off designing and building these fine things.
[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 05 May 2005 at 09:37 PM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 5 May 2005 8:09 pm

I think what it comes down to for most of us is that we can barely come up with enough even for a cheapie, and when one goes for insane money like this it is kinda frustrating

Frustrating? Why? Do you begrudge everyone who lives in a bigger, fancier home than you? Do you get mad every time someone in a Lexus or BMW passes you on the highway? I don't concern myself with what someone else has, I just worry about what I have and what I don't have. Chill! Be thankful for what you have and don't begrudge someone for having more or spending more. Just remember, it's their money not yours so they can spend it on whatever they wish and if they want 10 Promats so be it!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 5 May 2005 10:21 pm

Pat.

hysterical! Good one.

Jim good post. And fine playing on your site.
-----------------------------------

LIFE : Yes some times life is frustrating :
I want an old PP tuned to do Al Marcus's cycle of classic lapsteel tunings. Hit a pedal get a new tuning.

I want a Promat set up for B.E. classic country and jazz.

I want an MSA Millenium set up Bb6 like David Wrights

I also want Ed Packard's MONSTER #2

And a MSA Super Slide and a HARMOS too.

Right now I have a Pro-II D-10 but I got it for under $1,000

I am getting a used Sierra U-14, also because it's not terribly expensive.

You have no idea how much I want to spend for microphones...
but it IS much more than that Mercedes above.

I convert my dollars tp Euros EVERY month. and lose 30%
I am leaving Europe for that reason.

When I see whining about not getting to BUY a steel;
a discretinary item,
when I am forced to move... well it sure makes the complainer seem small in comparison to my nut to crack right now.

IS the price insane, no,
is it too high, sure,
but we can't change city hall in mid season.

Eventually the exchange rate will equalize and Mr. Papic will sell more Promats in the USA.
And few of them will come up for sale used very fast.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 May 2005 at 11:25 PM.]

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 6 May 2005 3:42 am

Buying a pedal steel guitar is akin to buying a casket from the undertaker. A pine box goes for the same as a Zum stage 1. Whereas, a fancy padded oak casket may run you $8000 or the same as a promat. Wheteher you are an undertaker or just a dude in the street one day your a$$ will sit in either a pine box or an oak box. In our capitalistic market we are able to choose. Just like the pine and oak serve the same purpose, so do the Zum and promat. Remember, though you could buy 10 Zum stage 1's for the cost of a promat. Like brother Mike said it is all a matter of choice!!

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 6 May 2005 10:42 am

TB, I see by your profile that you're a teacher. If you don't mind my curiosity, what subject(s) do you teach? I'm assuming it's not economics or diplomacy...