Other steel players..Collegues or rivals???..

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 21 Aug 2005 9:36 am

I wonder how working steel players view other guys that they compete with for gigs,good bands,recording work etc??..

I used to be in that position many years ago when I lived in North Jersey.. LOTS of competition in the NY City/NJ/LI/Conn area.. Lots of good players and not enough good work usually,although that may have changed. I saw the other players as friends I guess, but NEVER forgot I WAS competing with them, and if given a chance, I would do whatever was needed to get the gig before them if it was a "its me or him" situation..

Do you feel this competitive spirit in your area,? or are you just as happy to let a friend grab that $300 a man New Years gig? Is it regional do you think ,with areas with lots of good players more hotly contested?... I would appreciate your honest insights on this topic... bob

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 21 Aug 2005 10:33 am

Bob,
I have found that some guys who are great guitarists, but also does a bit of really basic steeling, are maybe scared to share a session with another who is perhaps a better steel player. (They might not get the next gig). So they'll convince the producer that their basic slides over the majors and minors are fine for the song.
Pity the artists has to lose out. Because the steel is so unknown here by us, the producers does not even know that there are better players around. Pity.

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Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 21 Aug 2005 2:07 pm

Bob
I have enjoyed all your topics !
on this one I will say I'm in AH of all the steel players
in this area ! But I think I'm doing more Gig's
than they are .
Bobbe made a comment
a wile back , If you real good your not working !
if you at the bottom you have more work than
you want ! I'm not sure that's what he said
but something like that - So I guess I know where
I stand .

Bob

Lyle Clary · Post by **Lyle Clary** » 21 Aug 2005 2:32 pm

I do not think it is about competition in getting that job,one being better than the other steel player. I think that the venues for playing just have dried up. When I was playing thirty years ago in our community there were 8 or 10 clubs that had live entertainment 7 nights a week,most of it country music. Now we are down to maybe 4 on the weekend. I blame Illinois law on blood alchohol level being 0.08 percent and the advent of kareoki. It could also be that real country music is dead, except when you get around steel guitar conventions.

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1969 ZB Custom D10, BMI S10, 1981 Peavy Musician Mark III, 15 Inch Black Widow, custom enclosure

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 21 Aug 2005 3:46 pm

Lyle, Your are right on brother. I live in the Phenix City,Columbus Ga.,Fort Benning area. back in the 50's and 60's there was room for at least twenty or more full time band around here.All the clubs used bands six nights a week,then we would work at Fort Benning on Sunday,I worked six to seven nights a week for years,not any more.Few of the clubs support live music,it's kareoki,open mic night,pool tournements etc,etc. I really don't blame the club owners,why pay a band when their patrons pay them so they can sing off key all night to a boom box. Back in the old days you did'nt have to compete with your friends,there was plenty of work to go around..Those days are gone.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 21 Aug 2005 5:03 pm

Bob,
I think we played the same circuit (NY,LI,NJ) back in the 70's and 80's, along with several other steelplayers, who were picking then. I never considered anybody a threat or compettition, back then. I always thought of another steel player, as a brother. I always tried to catch another guys show, if I had the night off. Steel pickers were always showing up at my gigs, just to shoot the bull and toss back a brew, never to compete. But, jobs were very plentiful back then. In fact, I can remember recommending other pickers for jobs I didn't have the time to do. And, vice-versa. Today is certainly different,though. Hardly any clubs to pick in and I don't feel like dragging all my rig out with any regularity, anymore. But, I would never shaft a guy from a gig, that, he had before me. If the "employer" chose him and not me, so be it.... hopefully another one would come along. I feel ( I hope) that I've kept my reputation and honor that way. I couldn't travel any other road.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 21 Aug 2005 5:35 pm

John... We DID play the same circuit.. I never had animosity for other steelers.. THAT is for sure... I had many friends that played steel in other bands, and I also would check them out when I could... I still had that little bit of a "competitive vibe" that I can't really explain though.. If a guy was having a hot night, and playing great stuff that I couldn't, I would go home feeling like a "smacked ass"... my ego just slightly bruised... If the opposite were true, and the guy was out of tune, or fumbling and flailing, I might have a tiny bit of a smug attitude about my own ability...

These days that is no longer part of who I am, but I must admit, it WAS at one time many years ago... Just being honest.... bob

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 21 Aug 2005 10:23 pm

My word has always been enough in the music business to pretty much work/play where I've wanted to. I've never viewed other steel players as a threat to me losing or not getting a playing gig. One thing I've always tried to do is to stay with a band as long as possible. To me it's easier for a band to get a good paying gig than it is for a single player to be looking around for one. If another player calls me to fill in for him if I'm not already playing, then I usually will. But I won't go after another players gig. Also, if I invite someone to play or fill in for a night, then they will get the amount I promised them, even if I have to take it out of my own pocket to pay them, which I've had to do before. To me, I consider it an honor to have people call me to come play sometimes. I'm not going to do anything to mess it up.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 21 Aug 2005 10:46 pm

The only steel player that I've ever been jealous of is Greg Leisz cuz he gets to play with Joni Mitchell and Bill Frisell. Of course he does do a stellar job with both of those great artists, so he deserves all his success! I'm just a little envious...that's all.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 22 Aug 2005 1:11 am

Rick, if I could play one song like your 'Pork Pie Hat,' I'd die a happy man.

The only steel player I can think of in town off hand is Lloyd Maines, so I guess we're not in competition.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 22 Aug 2005 1:27 am

I always loved meeting the good steel players.If fact i think some of them hated to see me coming because on their break i always asked,how did you do that?.And they always took the time to show me.
I had one friend who played steel in a large western swing band many years ago and he really wasn't very advanced but he was hired because of his stage presense and his always big smile.He did look good on stage.
Times have sure changed haven't they? And for the ones too young to understand this,the bands wore clothes back then and nice ones to.Tracy

Jack Dougherty · Post by **Jack Dougherty** » 22 Aug 2005 5:17 am

BOB...I also frequented the New York area in the seventies and eighties....There was a lot of work as John said and not really a problem getting work...I have always looked at another steeler as a means to get better..that is for better or for worse there was always something I tried to walk away with after hearing that person...Tried to make it motivational instead of adversarial....Even though there is not much going on in my neck of the woods now I still get to pick once a month or so at the local club meetings and get to see and hear everybodys different style of playing...
It's not so much a competition as it is a revelation...Still fun after all these years...
JD

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There is no such thing as too many steels!! Zum D10 8/8
Electronics.. constant state of flux

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 22 Aug 2005 5:50 am

I used to let that competitive thing bother me years ago. But, one of my mentors once said that if I continued to allow it to bother me, it would be an obsession that I would carry with me for all my days, because there would always be someone better.

As simple as that was, it was the best advice I every received as far as playing is concerned. I will never be a great player on any of the many instruments that I play, but I have learned to play within context of my abilities--that is, I know how to not play over my head. Because of this, I can perform adequately for most situations.

Really, how many gigs require phenomenal playing? I am certain that most of us can sit down and play along with just about any recording out there and play what is required to get the job done. When our satisfaction is found only in some unreachable goal, we miss the real joy of playing; and that will hinder our ability to perform adequately more than anything I can think of. [This message was edited by Webb Kline on 22 August 2005 at 06:51 AM.]

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 22 Aug 2005 5:54 am

If you live way out in West Texas like me and Charlie, you start getting pretty tired of no gigs until late August when Texas Tech comes back to school. In a year when I graduate, I'll be moving down to the New Braunfels / San Marcos area where I'll decidedly be "Low-Peck" of the pickers (even with a degree in Commercial Music). How could I see so many more experienced players as competition when I already consider them to be mentors and having superior knowledge? I have yet to meet a steel picker that wasn't a very nice person and willing to put up with my constant and sophomoric questions.

I do have one thing up on most of y'all, and Tracy hit on the idea. I'm young. That's one way I could hope to get a road gig with a (reasonably) big act here in Texas. Of course, my chops are improving daily, but I've got about 20 years on most of y'all.

Oh, and by the way, Charlie, Lloyd Maines lives in Austin, and has for years. There's just not enough big talent in West Texas anymore (except for you and me, but why would he hire somebody else to play steel?). Austin is a much better place for his studio, because that's where all the pickers and singers are. One guy you should definitely get out to watch in this area is Baxter Vaughan, from Plainview. He's been picking (steel and etc.) out in this area for almost 30 years, and he'll give just about anybody a good run for their money.

Just like in my signature, "A grape ripens in the presence of good grapes." Kindof the polar positive side to "One bad apple spoils the barrel."

-MG

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Uva Uvam Videndo Varia Fit
Carter D-10, Matchbox 7a, Nashville 400,
Dingwall Afterburner I 5 string bass
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Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 22 Aug 2005 7:42 am

I'm always happy to meet another steelplayer, no matter if he's better or worse than me. We're not that many around here, and there's some brotherhood thing going on mainly because of that I think.

Somebody mentioned the mediocre player being chosen over the great player because "the producers didn't know better" or something like that. Not an exact quote.

That led me to ask myself, if the basic a-b or b-c stuff is as accesable as it is to especially new players, because it was INTENDED in the developement of tuning and copedent of these machines, as it is the stuff that will fit most productions best.

Or has the copedent/tuning of the pedal-steel guitar basically created the style that most players will adapt to, even when learning the instrument themselves without the aid of a teacher.

It's something of a "which was first, the hen or the egg" discussion, and I'm sorry for being a bit off-topic here. It was just a thought, and I hope that I have expressed myself properly.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

[This message was edited by Klaus Caprani on 22 August 2005 at 08:44 AM.]

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 22 Aug 2005 10:31 am

Dallas/Fort Worth in the 1970/80's was overloaded with about a zillion country bars as well as bands.On any given night you could count on one or two steel players to come into the bar where you were working.

In the early years while I considered most steel players collegues,I always felt somewhat intimated and threatened whenever I would see one walk in. My first thought was why aren't they working followed up by, I bet he's checking to see if the bands possibly looking to replace me.

My worst nightmare was one night in 1982 when Gary Carpenter,Donny Lavelley (sp) and Gary Hogue all walked in together and just stood there and stared at me.The only thing that could have been worse was if they had had violin cases under there arms.

Another problem was if you were in a band and one of the musicians had a pal who was a steel player who had just lost his pickin job,you could almost bet you'd get let go so he could go to work which did happen to me once or twice.I was very intimidated back in those days although now,I could care less.

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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 22 Aug 2005 11:16 am

There is about five of us in this area and we are all friends.A couple of them are much better than me and a couple are not.The two that can play rings around me always help me if I ask.On the other hand if the ones that are having a problem with something ask my advise and I can help them,it makes me feel great. I have known only one steel playerthat was a throughbred A--H---.but he would have been that if he played the steel or not.I do feel a brotherhood with all my musician friends.I told my daughter once that I had no close strait friends,I had to explain by strait I meant non musicians.I have a few people I associate with occasionally but had rather be with my picking buddys.Even when some of us have disagreements sometimes ,when the dust settles we are still family and friends because we share something that strait people have no clue.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 22 Aug 2005 12:09 pm

I only live a stone's throw away from Bobby Boggs, and Mike Bagwell, and Joe Turner, and several other guys who were screwing legs on Emmonses(?) while I was still putting Black Diamond strings on a Les Paul DeLuxe! I have been offered jobs that these cats turned down---terrible thing, to have to tell somebody who's heard these earthmovers play, that I'll bring MY sorry-playing, no-tuning, not-too-purty, OLD, no-song-knowing self right on over!
Rivalry? Nobody's that insecure! I love these guys, whether on the bandstand, or if I'm sitting in the crowd enjoying their playing!

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 22 Aug 2005 3:19 pm

Ones ATTITUDE makes or breaks a player. You could be the best player,but if you have a bad attitude and can't get along with people the other player will get the job before you. Joe

Bowie Martin · Post by **Bowie Martin** » 22 Aug 2005 4:31 pm

My experience has been it is how you fit in the the band that is most important, and that your attitude and other contributions are as important as how you play. I play slow as mud but got a guitar picker and piano player that can burn them up...they don't need my help. But on the intermediate and slow stuff, I get to do more than my fair share, and it ain't fancy, but works out just fine...People hire the band, not the "steel player" or other musician; its how you work together. Attitude will keep you working..

billy tam R.I.P. · Post by **billy tam R.I.P.** » 22 Aug 2005 5:15 pm

Bob, I like to think of all the players I know as colleagues. In this area there are a whole lot of players a whole lot better than I am and some players maybe not as experienced. I have been fortunate enough to play mostly as much as I wanted or was able to at the time, including now. My only complaint is not being able to here all these guys as much as I would like because you can learn something from every player, whether right or wrong.
thanks
Billy Tam

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 22 Aug 2005 5:20 pm

Joe and Bowie,Your right.A mediocre picker with the right attitude,will last far longer than a superpicker with the wrong attitude. No doubt about it.

JW Day · Post by **JW Day** » 22 Aug 2005 5:39 pm

I've never been jealous or intimidated by better or so called hot shots pickers.Besides playing steel,I also fronted off and on. Most of the time the so called better pickers are only there for a short time, then they move on to something different.I would rather have a happy face and some one dependable, any time.

Joe Shelby · Post by **Joe Shelby** » 22 Aug 2005 9:36 pm

I'm a little embarassed to post, but I think
this is an important topic. Besides I won't be revealing much that I haven't talked about
here at one time or another.
In my teens and '20's, I was shy, but not unkind to other steel players who would come up to me on gigs and introduce themselves.
If I didn't already know the guy I would feel
a certain amount of competiveness/ego come up in my gut.
Still, in those early years I had friendships
with Joe Goldmark, Duane Wong, Marty Muse,Gary Potterton, and Dan Tyack. Duane and Marty, especially,
were close friends, and we played together a
lot. The Bay Area, at that time (not unlike
most other places in the mid '70's/'80's) had
plenty of work. Many steel players could easily work 6-7 nights a week, and I always
felt confident that I could reccomend any of
these guys for sit down jobs or one nighters
and was happy to do it.
When depression and panic anxiety hit me towards the very end of the '70's it put a strain on all my relationships, musical and otherwise. Self esteem takes a plunge and you
lean on wounded pride to hold you up--meanwhile, you're F.I.N.E. (!&@$%*-up, insecure, neurotic, edgy).
When I went back to gigging in the early nineties (for about five years), a lot had changed (maybe me as much as anything else). A lot fewer jobs, and many of the players I'd worked with had either moved or gone on to other things. The cameraderie was
gone and I was more of a mercenary than anything else. Lots of last minute calls for
one nighters.
Going back to gigging (if I ever get a handle on my performance anxiety), I'd know
there isn't a lot out there, and that pulling down the most gigs (whatever the quality) would not be where it's at for me.
Connecting musically and feeling connected to other steel players is what I'm here for.
That's the goal, anyway...
Joe.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 23 Aug 2005 2:19 am

Oops, sorry I eliminated you from the list here, Michael; but currently, you may be the entire A-list.
Either way, still no competition.
There's a studio here that does a lot of commercial music, in fact two. Neither have pianos, so don't need a tuner, but could always use a good steel player, I'm sure. I'll refresh myself on the names and email you.

I know Lloyd moved to Austin; but it makes a better story to harken back to the old days. Everybody moved to Austin while I wasn't looking, including Stubbs' Barbeque.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 23 August 2005 at 06:07 AM.]