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Topic: Tunings - straight up 440 for other (Newman settings, etc. |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 7:57 am |
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Buddy's comments about temperature changes are the reason that "pure" JI or ET don't work. If your 3rds are tuned JI (14 cents flat of ET) and they drift slightly flat, they sound horribly out of tune. Similarly, and this is Buddy's point, if the thirds are tuned ET and they drift slightly sharp, they are intolerable. The logical solution is to tune them somewhere in between.
Buddy wrote, "...as equal as the physics of the guitar will allow." - I like that phrase. 
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 9:17 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| The slight differences of pitch within the various temperaments are of no consequence unless the bar is in the right place. |
My experience is that it is much more important that the steel guitar be in tune with itself than that it be in tune with the band. If one note in a steel guitar triad is off by 10 cents, it will annoy us. But if the bar placement is off by 10 cents, it is not nearly so bad. It's just like your trombone section vs the orchestra. |
I agree, and I'm not sure if I've contradicted myself. My remark about bar placement was intended to mean that a player's favourite setup is no good unless they have the musical ear to exploit it.
Echoing what b0b said about temperature, I also tune JI but with slightly sharp thirds for safety. After all, if we're used to ET thirds we can surely tolerate something very slightly bright. But the tiniest fraction below spells disaster.
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Now look back at the first few reactions to the OP - in fact it's not turned out so bad, has it?
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 9:30 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Buddy's comments about temperature changes are the reason that "pure" JI or ET don't work. |
"Pure" JI cannot work, as that will require retuning every time one changes key unless one slides up/down to match the one "Pure" JI key the PSG is tuned in – too limiting in practice. JI has to be a compromise no matter what, so we can play whatever key in as many positions as possible on the neck. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 9:45 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| Buddy's comments about temperature changes are the reason that "pure" JI or ET don't work. |
"Pure" JI cannot work, as that will require retuning every time one changes key unless one slides up/down to match the one "Pure" JI key the PSG is tuned in – too limiting in practice. JI has to be a compromise no matter what, so we can play whatever key in as many positions as possible on the neck. |
Just so I am understanding your comment...Does the phrase “one pure key†literally mean you can only play in tune in one key? Or does it refer to the relative position of the guitar when it is tuned? If you tune your open E9, pedals down A chord, AF combination for C# Major, and E lowers all JI perfect, doesn’t that mean they will sound in tune all the way up and down the neck, as long as your bar placement is good, no matter what key you are in? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 9:49 am
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Surely whatever tuning you set at the nut will be the same at every fret. Sliding up and down to change key is exactly what we do, unless I misunderstand totally.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 1:28 pm
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If you can play in 5 keys at one fret, and have to move up or down a fret to get the other 7, I don't really see the problem. A piano doesn't have that option. You can tune a piano to pure JI and it will sound beautiful in 5 keys, but the other 7 have some very bad sounding notes in them. That's why meantone and eventually ET (a very specific meantone) were invented.
The open strings on an ideal JI-tuned pedal steel will have pure harmonies for a diatonic scale in 5 keys. For E9th at the 8th fret you have D, G, C, F, and Bb. The other 7 keys are just a fret away. I've never found that to be limiting, but apparently some players (including Buddy Emmons and Georg Sørtun) do.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 2:51 pm
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It's simpler than that. If you tune your open strings and all your changes in natural intervals, then every chord you play at whatever fret will be in natural intervals too. In fact whatever temperament you use it will work at any fret in any key.
I use JI and it works the same in all keys. It's not something I have to consider.
Don't be confused by pianos. It's true that if you tune the white notes and the first couple of flats and sharps to JI it sounds wonderful if you play in C, G or F. But C#, Ab and Gb are not recognisable as music. But if the piano had a massive bar that could come down across the strings to shorten them half a step, then the player could go up from C to C# by pulling a lever and staying in JI.
That's what a PSG does at every fret.
_________________
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 8 Apr 2020 3:20 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Just so I am understanding your comment...Does the phrase “one pure key†literally mean you can only play in tune in one key? |
Literally I mean "only one key for each fret when tuning perfectly pure JI". Playing any other key than that that is "directly transposable by moving the bar" key will contain "off" notes compared with the "base JI tuned key-chord" on that fret.
Only the fact that not all keys will contain notes that clash unacceptably hard (to our ears) with all other keys on that very same fret, and of course the fact that not every note in an octave is present on the instrument on each fret, makes it possible to "stretch" what is acceptable keys to play on each fret beyond the base key and still make it sound "reasonably pure".
All polyphonic instruments ever made, or that will be made in the future, run into that very same issue with natural scales, and rely on mechanical or electronic "forcing" of exact tuning of individual notes in an octave, in order to make every key beyond the base key they are JI-tuned in sound "close enough for comfort".
The steel (PSG or not) has the advantage that we can – literally – transpose the entire tuning up and down the neck with the bar, but that still leaves us with only one key in perfect tune for each fret, and all other keys on that very same fret with however large or small single-note "errors", that we then either accept and correct for while playing, or spend time finding tunings that make these "errors" acceptably small to our ears.
Issues like "body-drop" and senitivity to temperature variations may be blamed for much of the JI-tuning problems, but those issues are the same for ET tunings.
That is: having a steel with ZERO body-drop and ZERO temperature dependent detuning, does not magically make "pure" JI-tuning work flawless for "all keys on all frets", it just makes it easier to tune in "acceptable compromises" for JI and "near perfect" and stable ET. |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 3:05 am
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| b0b wrote: |
The open strings on an ideal JI-tuned pedal steel will have pure harmonies for a diatonic scale in 5 keys. For E9th at the 8th fret you have D, G, C, F, and Bb. The other 7 keys are just a fret away. I've never found that to be limiting, but apparently some players (including Buddy Emmons and Georg Sørtun) do. |
I guess that's a matter of musical interpretation and intention.
If you play a lick purely in A at the 5th fret, there is no issue. But if you play a chromatic lick mostly one fret down, how should it sound?
I'm inclined to view it that the one fret down lick should also largely be in JI a half step down at A flat. But the options are what make the art interesting. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 5:29 am
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I am now understanding what Georg is saying.
In my tuning system ("Safe JI"), at the nut the following notes are defined and available:-
All the notes of the E major scale plus:-
E# (a third above C#)
G (a third below B)
A# (a third above F#)
B# (a third above G#)
D (a third below F#)
Note that there is no C, F or Bb.
(This is the equivalent of a keyboard with its black notes tuned as C#,Eb,F#,G#,Bb)
Now let's take our familiar 3rd fret as an example. There I now have defined and available all the notes of the scales of F, C, G, D, A and E. Now four of those keys (G, C, E and D) correspond to the four basic positions (open, A&B, A/F and Es lowered) and have all their related chords in tune. So as I play in the key of G and move between those positions all the chords I might want to use (including IV, V, ii, iii, vi etc. on nearby frets) are going to be just as in tune as they would be at the nut.
My setup ensures that the guitar is in tune with itself, and my left hand puts it in tune with the band.
_________________
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 6:45 am
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| Quote: |
| I'm inclined to view it that the one fret down lick should also largely be in JI a half step down at A flat. |
To preface - I'm talking about tuning and playing E9. I haven't really come to terms with C6 yet, but I'm working more on that lately.
If a pedal steel is tuned JI or something close to it at A on the 5th fret, the various major/minor scales and chords have those pure intervals. And one can analogously tune the pedals and levers so that the resulting major/minor scales and chords also have those pure JI intervals. Some combinations may require that your bar placement be off the fret for the root to be in tune with straight barred chord. For example, for the A+F A chord at fret 8 to be also in tune with straight-bar A chord at fret 5, the bar must be moved sharp a bit from the 8th fret marker position. This can be handled by ear with practice.
And none of this changes when you move the bar up and down, except that, for example, the open position A+F will be flat. That is easily corrected by open-tuning the roots a bit sharp, as advocated by players like Paul Franklin. From reading some of the threads I referenced earlier, his primary rationale for this was more analogous to the stretch-tuning of a piano higher as you move to the higher octaves. From my memory of this, he argued that E9 pedal steel in practice is a quite high-pitched instrument and fit more with that model. But that open-string pitch correction is another benefit.
Now - to get at what Georg, Steve, and others are saying (not sure I understand it yet) - is what some of you are concerned about essentially this: if you want to play a modal scale (or a melodic fragment leaning heavily on it) - let's say B Dorian at the 5th fret as one example - then the intervals will be off? And yes, they will definitely be off.
Personally, my rationale to moving from a confirmed ET-tuned guitar player to tuning E9 pedal steel by ear generally as close to JI as my steels will allow is primarily about chords, especially the type of long, lingering chords that, to me, define much of the beauty of the instrument. As for scales - if they're slow enough for me to notice any out-of-tuneness of the intervals, I can make corrections by ear. And if they're flying by real fast (well, as fast as I can go at this point), I don't notice out-of-tuneness unless it's real bad. I think it's pretty tough to detect beats unless clashing notes linger at least a couple of beat intervals - i.e., the inverse of the beat frequency. I only notice this on lingering notes, but especially harshly on lingering chords.
So personally - I would never give up nice-sounding triadic and extended-triadic chords to be able to get more in-tune modal scale type melodic runs played out of, e.g., the Ionian root bar position. I guess if that's a major issue for you, then JI or similar tunings may be an issue. But I think even that could be addressed with a meantone tuning.
I also think that some of the fine points about the machine can be at least partially addressed with the use of anti-tune devices and/or compensators. Myself, I'm still working on getting my playing to the point where I'm so in-tune that the difference would be stark.
Finally - I have played with keyboard players a lot - mostly B3 organ. I have not noticed my JI chords clashing with the keyboard chords provided that our roots are centered with the ensemble's tonal center and in-tune with each other. But I definitely notice if my sustained chords are beating, even in this context. To me, it's the nature of this instrument. Out-of-tuneness on sustained triads has always bothered me on guitar, and I occasionally will make adjustments if I am leaning on sustained triadic chords a lot - flattening 3rds a bit, bending notes, whatever. But I get it that one is pretty much stuck with something close to ET on a totally fixed-pitch instrument. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 7:32 am
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I just make sure I'm at A 440 with pedals A & B engaged. I'm in with a piano. I know the cabinet drop on both of my guitars and temper to it. The 3rds are always to compensate in each pedal combination. The worst is the F lever which is always tempered down the most and bar placement is slightly to the right (sharp) of the fret to be in tune when played as a chord. I don't think there is a right or wrong way. I tried everything at 440 once and only once. It sounded horribly out of tune. Some great pianists carry there personal piano tuner person to retune a piano to their preference before a concert. I believe steel guitar is the same. We just use a programmable tuner or tune harmonically by ear to get most of the beats out. Not that big of deal. I play a U-12 and found that I have to tune the 11th and 12th string slightly flat in the open position because the weight of the bar on those two less taught strings will be slightly sharp. Another compensation.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 8:12 am
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Just adding another wrinkle.
A picked note will spike sharp and then gradually decay to being in tune, and then maybe even fall flat before it’s volume drops out. As Dave M. mentions, this is not so much an issue for single note playing as for sustained chordal stuff. But we do both on this instrument, and it is an area where ear training and “touch and tone†are important.
I’ve gone back and forth between tuning more towards the initial pick attack or towards the decay of the picked note on standard guitars, never really settling on either. Is there a general consensus for steel, since sustain is such an important aspect of it? |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 8:41 am
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I always let the note sustain for a few seconds before tuning for that very reason. Using harmonics at the 12th fret with a tuner seems to be more accurate than open tuning to me.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 8:56 am
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As an aside, I was reading a Roland MIDI implementation manual today (don't ask why) when I came across the following chart. We often say say that 1 Hz near the 440 mark is equal to 4 cents. Here are the actual cent values to two decimal places, well below the limits of human pitch recognition.
Sort of like angels on the head of a pin, no? We now return to our regular program.
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 9:12 am
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It is. If everybody in the band is well-tuned to the same tonal center, which is A= 440 (it's the law), you would find very few actual pitch matches.
Yet it still sounds good.
As far as balancing between attack and decay, Fred, use the force.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 10:14 am
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| Charlie McDonald wrote: |
| As far as balancing between attack and decay, Fred, use the force. |
Alas, I am but a lowly Jawa, Charlie.
Dennis W.- I have been using harmonics at 12 and comparing with the 5ths at fret 7 for a while. Not convinced it’s the best way, but the notes do seem more stable. Possibly because the string vibration field is narrower?
Last edited by Fred Treece on 9 Apr 2020 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 10:27 am
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I've known a few inhuman musicians. Or, were they un-human? I knew a bass player that never tuned his 4th string (low E). He never used it. I took my banjo with me to the outhouse and never returned.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 10:38 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Possibly because the string vibration field is narrower? |
Yes, grasshopper.
The entire field, when viewed carefully, is wide: anywhere between JI and ET--and it would be different between different notes--you will find someone.
The difference is infinitesimal in performance. So goes the way.
The theory of meantone is to minimize the difference to either. In reality, everyone establishes his/her own mean between the two.
Of course, mine is the golden mean.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons
Last edited by Charlie McDonald on 9 Apr 2020 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 10:45 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| I was reading a Roland MIDI implementation manual today (don't ask why) |
It's ok, b0b, your secret's safe with me.
Back on topic, much is made of the A/F combination being apparently flat, but that's because it's the E# we are listening for and in any tempered tuning it will be under to some extent and need correcting by moving the bar a noticeable amount. It's one of those mysteries of the ear-brain combination that we can tolerate a sharp tonic and fifth but not a flat third.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 11:16 am
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For clarity: the "natural issues" I mention when it comes to "pure JI" tunings, does not prevent me from tuning as close to "pure JI" as the instrument at hand allows for. As mentioned early in this thread; I tune the "A" – 3d string B-pedal down in open, and then tune all other strings to that same "A" by ear, checking full chords through all changes in open, third and fifth fret, mainly to "beatless" or whatever sounds "purest". I call it "compromised JI" because it can not be called "pure JI" tuning no matter hwo many "pure-sounding" chords it contains.
As also mentioned earlier: I "play out" unwanted single-note "errors" in JI by choosing what strings to pick and/or by offset and push the bar vertically till all notes sound good together and with whatever other instruments that are playing, always keeping the pitch of the main notes in the tune in mind.
I have a reasonably good sense of relative pitch, so none of this slows me down or require active thinking while playing – unless the steel drifts too much out of tune while I'm playing it.
- I have one PSG (of five) with zero "bodydrop" and minimal temperatur sensitivity. Have brought it in from freezing temperatures to normal living-room temperature, and it did not detune noticeable while warming up. That is my seriously modified Dekley, and that one is heavy.
- My other PSGs vary greatly – my MSA S12 is about "as tuning-stable as a seasick cow", but all can be "played to submission" with slight displacements of the bar on-the-fly. Thus, no real problems in my book.
I am not an advanced steel player – for lack of practice mostly (it is not among my main interests), but after having played various instruments since the age of ten, and PSG since the late -70s I am still tuning JI or as close to JI as natural scales and instruments allow for. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 1:01 pm
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Bob.Roland chart still looks like “around 4 cents†which is what I’d been told.,
J |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 1:13 pm
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What attracted me to the PSG in the first place was its ability to play chords of such beauty that I could enjoy sustaining them. As I play partly for my own amusement and partly with a band who are so in awe of what I do that it would not occur to them to question any aspect of it, I am under no pressure to abandon JI 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 9 Apr 2020 1:32 pm
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I've been using the Peterson SE9 setting which puts the Es at 9.8 cents sharp. When I play the open 4th or 8th, or 5th, or 10th strings. they always sound reasonably in tune with the rest of the band (who all use tuners and are presumably pretty close to A 440). So my ear does not demand perfect A 440 intonation. However, the 3rd and 6th strings sound noticeably flat when played open, even though I am precisely tuned up to the SE9 setting. I always avoid playing those strings open.
Overall I like the sound of Just Intonation, but sharpening the thirds and sixths a touch might make some sense. I never thought I would say that.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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