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Topic: Playing in Modes |
Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 4:22 am |
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Jazz players usually have a bag of tricks using modes. For example: the Dorian mode with a root on the 6 of the key is often used where other players would use Aeolian (the natural minor). Phrygian with the root on the 1 of the key played over a chord progression that is diatonic (all in the same key) gives a beautiful, bright sound.
I find you can really start to hear the tonality of a minor key if you alternate between Dorian and Aeolian modes. Then it's just a hop away from playing a classical harmonic minor scale - flat 3rd, natural 6th and 7th playing an ascending melodic phrase or flat 6th and 7th playing a descending melodic phrase. The amount of note choices you have there is impressive. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 10:13 am
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Just one example, ...an analogy from the electric guitar world... but if you learn your Scales and Modes to an intermediate level (you don't have to be an expert), you can easily learn, and play along with, all of The Allman Bros instrumental greatest hits, in one afternoon. Those soaring melodies are right out of the book.
Think of Scales and Modes as Music Theory 101.
[At some point...] We should all take the time to learn at least that much, right?
We got a girl up here who likes to sit-in and sing White Rabbit. I am glad to know how to play Phrygian Mode
I agree it seems completely unnessesary for most country band situations, but once you know this stuff, you hear others play and you start noticing where they are using (or not using) Scales and Modes. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 2:50 pm Scales/Modes
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For a good discussion of this topic, listen to Leonard Bernstein's master class on this very subject, in four parts on YouTube. He covers the physics of modes (scale steps and all of that). Interesting.
And as he puts it, "Just play the white keys"!
Leonard Bernstein on Modes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGTT_VK2kVY |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 10:47 pm
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Using Stuart's method, you will play harmonically correct notes. However, you will always sound like you are playing a C major lick over a Dminor. You are also doing more math
than necessary, as you think, "Dminor..I play a C major scale".
As Doug B said, jazz players learn the modes from their root note, and are playing ideas that fit the root note and the harmony.
As the chord progressions get more involved, knowing the mode makes things easier.
As an example, in the key of C,
Cmajor-A7aug-Dmi7- G7aug
The A7altered scale is a mode of Bb melodic minors scale and sounds great over that A7. But having to think of it as Bbmi becomes cumbersome. It is better to learn the scale as an A7aug, than do the mental transposition, "A7, I play a Bbmelodic minor scale".
The point is, Stuart's shortcut works, but you will think clearer and play better (and with more feeling) if you take the time to learn the modes from their root note.
John |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2017 11:03 pm
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If you know what chord you're on and what key you're in, the mode is just sort of automatic, isn't it? When a song is C goes to the Dm, I could think of it as Dorian mode in D, but in reality I just use the notes from the key of C to fill in the spaces between the notes of the Dm chord.
_________________
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 12:14 am
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| Quote: |
| If you know what chord you're on and what key you're in, the mode is just sort of automatic, isn't it? When a song is C goes to the Dm, I could think of it as Dorian mode in D, but in reality I just use the notes from the key of C to fill in the spaces between the notes of the Dm chord. |
This is the head of the nail, the hammer, and the two by four.
Knowing the feel of the song, knowing your scales, modes, and chord tones, when to go outside the diatonic box, all the harmonic theory that can be appropriately applied to the song, all the physical technique - these are the tools of a soloist's trade. And the freaky coolest thing about it is that you really can't be thinking about any of it while you're playing. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 10:55 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| If you know what chord you're on and what key you're in, the mode is just sort of automatic, isn't it? When a song is C goes to the Dm, I could think of it as Dorian mode in D, but in reality I just use the notes from the key of C to fill in the spaces between the notes of the Dm chord. |
That's true, B0b. In your example, you played "D, mode 2" over the ii chord. Yes, you would just play the scale of the song's key of C to get that. And if you left the bar there in the 'C' home fret, you would automatically be playing the notes in "A, mode 6" when the vi chord of Am came along. So your question is: does all the mode talk just lead you to play the "C" scale over all the typical chords for a song in the key of C?
Yes, it works that way a lot of the time. But if you understand how to manipulate the modes it gets more interesting. By manipulate, I mean when you play, say, mode 2 over something other than the song's ii chord. Play it over a major chord with the same root and it's the minor blues/rock feel. For example, play a "C, mode 2" over a C major chord (Bb scale over a C chord) and you'll be in Bluesland.
Or play, say, "C, mode 3" over a C major chord and it's instantly the Spanish/Flamenco flavor (i.e., play notes from the Ab major scale over a C chord).
I think of it as just sliding the bar down the fretboard to walk through the list of modes, all with the same root: it's generally two-frets-down per mode (except that it's only one fret down to jump to mode 4). Note that the pattern of this sliding-down thing is the same as the whole/half-step scheme of walking up the major scale:
Mode 1: Home fret (for whatever key you're in): +0
Mode 2: -2 frets
Mode 3: -2 more frets
Mode 4: -1 fret
Mode 5: -2 frets
Mode 6: -2 frets
Mode 7: -2 frets
Obviously, with all that sliding down you're going to hit the roller nut at some point, so "wrap it around" to the 12th fret and keep going down.
Practically speaking, once you get down to Mode 5, you're at 7 frets below home, so it becomes easier to think of that position as 5 frets up from home (same notes, just an octave up). And Mode 6 is 3 frets up, Mode 7 is 1 fret up.
This is the dumbed down version. To really hear how the mode works, you should adjust your major scale pattern by changing which string you start on:
If walking through the 7 modes that all have a root note of C, you would, say, start Mode 1 on stg 8 in the 8th fret.
In mode 2, since you've slid down 2 frets, you would have to counteract that by moving your thumb up and starting on stg 7 (to maintain the same starting root note, C). And not for nothing, this is why it's even called mode 2: the root note you're looking for appears as the 2nd note of some major scale's pattern (C is the 2nd tone in the Bb scale. Voila: "C, mode 2" lives inside the Bb scale).
Also, since you're now skipping stg 8 and starting on 7, you would have to add the 1st string at the end of the scale to still end up with an 8-note scale. Other than that, you just play the same strings/pedals/knees in the same order that you did to get the major scale in the home fret.
And so forth through the other modes, moving your thumb up to a higher string (to always be starting the pattern on the same C note) as you slide the bar down through successive positions.
I hope that makes sense. In mode 3, you would start on stg 6 (we're keeping the root C note constant), and add stgs 1 and 3 to the end of the normal scale pattern, so as to still be running it from C to high-C. You can really hear the Spanish flavor of mode 3 when you start on stg 6 -- as opposed to starting the pattern on stg 8, where it's the Ab major scale. Yes, those two things share all the same notes, but they feel different depending on what root note or chord they're played against. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 5:40 pm And the light comes on...
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This tied it all together for me:
"Other than that, you just play the same strings/pedals/knees in the same order that you did to get the major scale in the home fret."
Playing the "C" chord at fret 8 a few times, then the mode scale as Tucker explained, lets you feel the different modes against the "C". Mode 3 is especially powerful and obvious. The others not so much, to me anyway.
Thank you Tucker! |
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Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2017 5:45 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
This may be a dumb question, but how many pro players are actually thinking about modes when they play? I know newbies and intermediate players should learn as much theory and basics as they can, but I've also come across some very accomplished musicians that, frankly, don't have any idea about what modes are.  |
I do all of my theory off line while practicing. When I'm playing at a gig, I reflexively go to the proper scale as I"m playing. I also ply jazz piano and frailing banjo, so I learned my modes from that experience.
_________________
Jack Aldrich
Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
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Asher Alan Akaka Special SN 6
Canopus D8 |
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Richard Nelson
From:
Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Mar 2017 5:20 pm
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| Modes are an attempt to give us something to talk about when we're not playing. "Loved your locrian mode on that V7 chord", said nobody ever. |
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Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 2 Mar 2017 10:38 pm The Modes.
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| Watching Mr. Bernstein, taught me what modes are and how they're used in music. I honestly didn't have a clue what ya'll were talking about, and I've been playing music for over 60yrs. Stuart's charts are still Greek to me. When I set down to record or learn a song, I don't think in modes, I follow the number chart, or play strictly by ear. Most of the time I can play something that fits the song, as long as it's not a song by Frank Zappa. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 5:45 am
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I never heard of modes until I started hanging with guitarists.
Fortunately, Charlie Parker mentioned 'church modes.' It gave me a clue, and now I see why he called it that.
When Bernstein begins to analyze Fete, he plays a scale I readily recognize as Dm. Nothing in me relates to Dorian except in architecture.
You know, talking about music is like dancing about architecture, you can pick either apart. However, Bernstein may have been
the country's most outstanding music educator. I'll have to see the other installments in modes to see if he can actually explain this
to a group of young people. I think the terminology will be overwhelming, being based on a set of arcane associations that don't necessarily
(and didn't originally) relate to music. Thank you, Dick.
I wonder if Debussy consciously thought about which modes he was employing. I have the feeling he found these scales which had the sound
that he was looking for. In that way, I think of it as an automatic thing, in b0b's terminology, using "the notes from the key of C to fill in the spaces between the notes of the Dm chord." |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 6:17 am
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You really have to watch Part II where Bernstein plays and sings 'Along Comes Mary' in Dorian Mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWtUCAYV3so (@ 1:45)
Mr. Bernstein hipped me I'd been playing in modes all my life and didn't know it.
Bernstein can explain why, through the deep literature, that we hear it that way. Masterful. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 12:22 pm
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| Mike Neer's book "Steelin' Scales and Modes" is an excellent instructional tool for learning more about modes. He does a great job of explaining some basic theory and it includes exercises for all of the modes. It is written for a non pedal C6 tuning, but the meat and potatoes can be applied to any tuning using a pedal or non pedal guitar. http://www.lapsteelin.com/2013/03/03/new-book-steelin-scales-modes/ |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 1:44 pm
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| Yawn............ |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 1:46 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Modes are an attempt to give us something to talk about when we're not playing. "Loved your locrian mode on that V7 chord", said nobody ever. |
It's a lot easier to lay the locrian mode down if somebody has talked to you about it. Talk is good. Knowledge is good. It's usable at a gig... for those willing to work it out. |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 2:06 pm
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I'm trying to relate all this to some of the people I played with in Bands, like the Bass player who was out cutting down Telegraph Poles to sell for firewood
he cut his left hand badly. He still turned out for the Gig and stood all night, Bass round his neck and hand with about an inch thick bandage hanging by his side. All of us were afraid of him and I can assure you we were quite happy with the Mode he chose not to play in and he got paid too.
James. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 4:38 pm
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Tucker,
You have a very cool way to look a modes on the neck. I tried it out today and a couple new things fell into place.
Thanks !
_________________
Bob |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 5:38 pm
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| James Kerr wrote: |
| I'm trying to relate all this to some of the people I played with in Band |
Yeah, I get it. '
I'm self-taught and didn't understand or need to know about this stuff... or so I thought.
In a session, this recording engineer asked me to "go all modal" on this frantic rock song. He's a guitar player but didn't know himself how to do it. He figured I was a steel player so I MUST be a theory freak. Not so much. I knew what he meant, but couldn't give him what he wanted. FAIL.
Went to my main source of learning PSG (this forum) and read up. Man, the way modes is taught is so ridiculous and confusing!
Finally, I powered through and realized that it's painfully easy -- it's just that the way it's normally taught is exactly backwards from how you would use it at a gig. Also, the Latin names are useless; unnecessary jargon that doesn't add anything to understanding what's going on. Meanwhile, the numbers do mean something, so I now use those when talking to folks who are learning. You don't even have to understand the logic behind any of it. All you need to know is the menu of what each of the 7 modes sounds like -- and then where to place the bar to get them. Then you just play using your normal scale pattern in the new fret.
Anyway, now if somebody said 'go modal,' I would assume they meant the most 'outside' sounding of the modes, which is mode 7: move the bar up one fret and play the major scale pattern. Like, over some type of C chord like Cdim, you might move up from fret 8 to 9 and play there (or from pedals-down, move from 3 to 4). At first, it might seem like a bunch of, well...wrong notes. But there are 2 that are in the key of the root of the chord you're playing over -- which is just enough to anchor what your doing and make people believe there must be some kind of logic to your craziness. They think you're a genius or at least a very hep cat. "Black magic!" Nope. Just read some stuff on the net and moved the bar up a fret.
Warning: go easy on mode 7 at your country gig -- not unless its briefly whipped out over a diminished chord. It's a little risky to introduce the most jarring notes available into a Haggard song for the first time in recorded history. In Texas, where I grew up, people have been killed just for accidental bar placement... going up an extra fret and stumbling into mode 7. Probably, you'll save that mode for your bebop or prog-rock project. They kill you at those gigs if you DON'T play it.
After I learned what each of the modes sounds like, I realized that I had screwed up another recording session where they had asked for me to play with a Latin flavor. Again, I know it when I hear it but couldn't do it at the time so I just played a minor scale. It was passable, but I now know to play in mode 3 because that one sounds Spanish (move the bar down 4 frets and play the major scale there). Easy! |
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John Alexander
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Mar 2017 11:23 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
It's a lot easier to lay the locrian mode down if somebody has talked to you about it. |
And it is easier to lay it down if somebody has asked for it. That engineer you mentioned who asked you to "go all modal"? It was just as much a failure on his part, for not really knowing what he was talking about and yet demanding you to understand. Good on you for seeking power from that experience, though.
I should not have trivialized something that helps someone understand music. Every player should at least have a basic knowledge of what modes are. My own various and sundry failings led me to the Ted Greene guitar books, which go deeper into harmonic mechanisms based on diatonic and altered scales than I will ever use or fully understand. Studying those books changed the way I play and made me appreciate the endless possibilities these 12 notes offer us. |
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John Alexander
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Posted 4 Mar 2017 12:07 am
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For those who praise the virtue of simplicity in music, that "less is more," and that "What counts is the notes you don't play," there is perhaps no more perfect expression of this philosophy than purely modal "plainchant," such as the following example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5p_U8J0iRQ&list=PLeJObYxwoehs8PsD9KLjQ5sx6m9cww4uW
In this example the key note that identifies the Dorian mode is withheld until about a minute and 20 seconds into the piece.
Without making an effort, do you hear this piece as expressing a major scale a whole step lower? I don't. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 4 Mar 2017 12:32 am
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In the world of singer songwriter pop , r and b , and modern rock quite a bit of the music just sorta morphs between major and minor tonality. If you can keep up then you get to play some very interesting and challenging music and pick up quite a bit of lucrative work.
Also it is just plain fun to screw around with tonality on the bandstand.
_________________
Bob |
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