| Author |
Topic: Theory of a Key |
Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
|
Posted 29 Aug 2014 5:19 pm |
|
I think that to have a meaningful converstation about this in the context on modern music; one needs to be familiar with "modern Western modes."
If your music teachers have never broached the subject of "Modes" you can get an overview of what they are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music).
Please note that "/Mode_(music)" is all part of the above URL and that the Forums parser has attempted to correct the non-standard HTML and deleted the "(music)" portion of the URL.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^)
Last edited by Eugene Cole on 29 Aug 2014 5:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
|
Posted 29 Aug 2014 5:22 pm
|
|
| Eugene Cole wrote: |
I think that to have a meaningful converstation about this in the context on modern music; one needs to be familiar with "modern Western modes."
If your music teachers have never broached the subject of "Modes" you can get an overview of what they are :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music). |
Having said this I'll take a stab at answering Jeff Metz question. I will keep this as simple as I can.
I would say that it depends upon:
1. the Mode in which the music is written (or the player understands the music to be written in)
2. if the notes used in the compostion stick to using only the intervals which can be illustrated by the white keys on a piano.
If the notes used in the composition stick to the intervals depicted by the white keys then you answer lies in the Mode.
If the notes used in the composition DO NOT stick to the intervals depicted by the white keys then it either modoulates at some points, or it is essentially chromatic in nature.
In common parlance when one speaks of a major-key they mean Ionian Mode: this is playing intervals depicted by the white piano keys where the I chord uses the C note as the root of the I chord.
Further: in common parlance a minor key is typically meant to mean Aeolean Mode: this is playing intervals depicted by the white piano keys where the i chord uses the A note as the root of the i chord.
But ultimately it still comes down to which Mode one is thinking that the composition was written in.
Of course there are many exceptions to the rule. A number of James Taylor songs in the Ioniam mode (the so called "major-key" which has I, IV, & V as the major chords); James actully plays I, IV, V, and VI chords as major chords.
I hope that this was simple and clear to everyone.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
|
|
|
Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
|
Posted 31 Aug 2014 4:43 pm
|
|
| Les Cargill wrote: |
| John Alexander: IV - I ! |
Les; what are you trying to say with this?
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
|
|
|
Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 6:19 am
|
|
| Eugene Cole wrote: |
| Les Cargill wrote: |
| John Alexander: IV - I ! |
Les; what are you trying to say with this? |
"Amen", musically. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 7:18 am
|
|
I think it's called a plagal cadence.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 8:21 am
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I think it's called a plagal cadence. |
Yes, it is. |
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 2 Sep 2014 11:57 pm
|
|
One of the greatest of all time steel players told me that my thinking along this line was all wrong and that the key of Am chord chart was written as though it were in the key of C.
However some folks like Bo and I just can’t seem to get the hang of reading a minor key chart written in that manor considering how complicated some chord progressions can get.
I just can’t write a chord chart out for a minor key and think in terms of numbers of it’s Major relative.
Normally what I would call a 1 would be a 6 and my 4 would become a 2 and my 5 would become a 3 etc. etc..
Maybe it just comes natural for me and Bo to write a chord progression that would be so far into the 500 page chord book it would make you puke.
Writing the chart for a minor key like it was the relative major might be the best if you just write the basics and let the musician embellish it till we all puke!!!
 |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 9:26 am
|
|
| Given the variety of chord progressions that may happen in a minor key, my inclination if writing a chord chart for a minor tune is to drop the numbers approach and write it using the chord names. If the need arises to have the chart in a different key, it'll have to be rewritten, but that's a small price to pay for clarity. |
|
|
|
John Alexander
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 10:12 am
|
|
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| I just can’t write a chord chart out for a minor key and think in terms of numbers of it’s Major relative |
I'm not sure why you would want to.
Someone who tells you that there are "really" only major keys should be able to explain why the largest percentage of all the songs in those "major" keys fall into two groups:
1. Songs that virtually all musicians, on hearing without access to the written music, would agree can only be fairly described as being in a major key. Example: Amazing Grace.
2. Songs that virtually all musicians, on hearing without access to written music, would agree can fairly be described as being in a minor key, even if they could also be described in terms of their relative major key. Example: Greensleeves.
As a starting point for differentiating these two groups, most of the songs in the first group end on a major chord, and most in the second group end on a minor chord. (And probably most exceptions to this rule are done to defy expectation and thereby create a dramatic effect.) There are lots of other characteristic differences between these groups, such as how scales are typically used (as described in Rich Sullivan's post above).
Once the differences between these two groups are sorted out, the two groups can be labeled "Major I" and "Major II." Or, following several centuries of tradition, major and minor. |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 10:34 am
|
|
| John Alexander wrote: |
| Rich Sullivan wrote: |
| The reason this is so disputed and misunderstood is probably because there are so many "minor" scales and modes. [snipped] |
Nice summary in your full post - thank you. Also it explains why minor keys don't have their own key signature: With all those variant scales in use in a minor key, no single key signature could do it justice. Using the key signature of the relative major key is a reasonable solution, and of course that's what has been handed to us by tradition. |
The Ancient Greeks recorded the verious different modes in detail, and the church used these modes for centuries. They preceded key signatures and modern music script, which is one of the reasons why key signatures don't fulfil all the requirements of the musician. When one considers the complications of the twelve-note octave, recorded as A through G#, where the notes themselves vary in pitch depending on which key you are playing in, there's something fundimantally wrong with system, and Equal Temperament just tries to take care of it with limited success. How do express a key which is half-way between B and C? The fact is, there are an infinite number of keys beteen the fixed notes, and they all obey the rules of harmony (which are linked to the laws of physics).
Years ago, when I was first looking at this, I was a Mathematics student at University, and it seemed obvious to me that if you called the key x, then you could express the notes of the scale and all the chords as algebraic formulae. Then all that would be necessary at the start of the piece is to state x=440 cps, for instance. The music score could then have twelve lines, and there would be no key signature.
On the piano keyboard there have been many attempts to come up with a better system than the black and white notes arranged side by side, but none of them has been accepted. One builder in the 19th century built a piano with a keyboard which could slide to the left or right, operating keys underneath which were attached to the beaters. Thus you could play everything in the key of C or A min, but it didn't catch on. I have visions of someone using that piano to try and play Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier and having to constantly slide the keyboard while playing.  |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 10:40 am
|
|
Irving Berlin shows his transposing piano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8VZoRw214
| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| The music score could then have twelve lines, and there would be no key signature. |
That would be twelve lines per octave. You'd have to have different-shaped notes to indicate which octave they were in to avoid having a page with the notes distributed among maybe 95 lines (though of course the majority of notes would likely occur within a span of *only* 80 lines or so). |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 3:26 pm
|
|
Thanks for sharing that Irving Berlin video. Yes, that's a transposing piano. They've made really complicated ones over the years. Of course, with modern keyboards it would be simple to build a transposing one, as all the connections would be electrical. Does anyone make a transposing keyboard with computer technology?
Regarding the music score with twelve lines, they would cover the same range as the FACE space and the EGBDF (Every good boy deserves flogging), and, like them, you would have both treble and bass clefs. Time signatures wouldn't change, of course, they're pretty explicit for anyone to understand. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 3:31 pm
|
|
Alan, nearly ALL synthesizers have transposition buttons. You just tell it how far to offset. Some do it by half-steps, and I think I saw one with finer adjustments.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 3:43 pm
|
|
| I was thinking of one where you could just push a G button, for instance, and suddenly all the white keys were in the key of G, not C. |
|
|
|
Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 4:38 pm
|
|
| John Alexander wrote: |
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| I just can’t write a chord chart out for a minor key and think in terms of numbers of it’s Major relative |
I'm not sure why you would want to.
Someone who tells you that there are "really" only major keys should be able to explain why the largest percentage of all the songs in those "major" keys fall into two groups:
1. Songs that virtually all musicians, on hearing without access to the written music, would agree can only be fairly described as being in a major key. Example: Amazing Grace.
2. Songs that virtually all musicians, on hearing without access to written music, would agree can fairly be described as being in a minor key, even if they could also be described in terms of their relative major key. Example: Greensleeves.
As a starting point for differentiating these two groups, most of the songs in the first group end on a major chord, and most in the second group end on a minor chord. (And probably most exceptions to this rule are done to defy expectation and thereby create a dramatic effect.) There are lots of other characteristic differences between these groups, such as how scales are typically used (as described in Rich Sullivan's post above).
Once the differences between these two groups are sorted out, the two groups can be labeled "Major I" and "Major II." Or, following several centuries of tradition, major and minor. |
I expect that the comment made to Stuart is simply that A Aeolian Mode ( aka A Minor ) is the same notes as C Major. I'd have to squint more myself if I saw a i for A minor instead of vi for it, especially for the 7dim vs the iidim( Bdim ) chord. And now the third degree is a C major - a IIIb. Ouch!
So If I'm using Numbers, I'd rather have 'em relative to the major key.
'Course there are countless modes and minors ( not really *countless but a great many ). Also, there is a G# in Greensleeves, indicating switching to a harmonic minor outta Aeolian. 
Music is big enough for multiple heresies |
|
|
|
Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 6:29 pm
|
|
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 7:02 pm
|
|
| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| I was thinking of one where you could just push a G button, for instance, and suddenly all the white keys were in the key of G, not C. |
Indeed. It's a common feature. You can get press a button (a series, actually), and you can play in C and have Ab come out of the speakers.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 3 Sep 2014 7:31 pm
|
|
| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| Regarding the music score with twelve lines, they would cover the same range as the FACE space and the EGBDF (Every good boy deserves flogging), and, like them, you would have both treble and bass clefs. Time signatures wouldn't change, of course, they're pretty explicit for anyone to understand. |
And of course, you could still use "8va", "8vb", "15ma", "15mb" to indicate ranges further above and below. Okay, so you'd only have 24 lines (12 treble clef, twelve bass clef), and you'd still have leger lines, only more of them, because of only using lines, instead of lines and spaces. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 8:07 am
|
|
I just read Jeff's initial post, which asks whether the third of the subdominant chord in the minor key is sharp or not.
I was listening to some 16th century English church music this morning (for a change). In those days the idea of major and minor didn't exist and the choice of sharp or flat was determined by the melodic shape of each individual vocal line. So you might get an F natural in an upper part against an F sharp in a lower, which sounds jazzy and cool. Or the other way round, or in the same octave, which sounds terrible to us. But they didn't think in terms of chords - if the melodic lines made sense, that was good enough.
But I suggest that nowadays we carry on trying to follow the singer
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 10:34 am
|
|
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| ...Okay, so you'd only have 24 lines (12 treble clef, twelve bass clef), and you'd still have leger lines, only more of them, because of only using lines, instead of lines and spaces. |
Well you could still use lines and spaces, which would give you two octaves per clef. The lines could be A B C# D# F G A and the spaces A# C D E F# G#, repeating, depending on whether you used 7 lines or 12 (maybe 13 would make more sense). |
|
|
|
John Alexander
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 2:28 am
|
|
| Les Cargill wrote: |
| I'd have to squint more myself if I saw a i for A minor instead of vi for it, especially for the 7dim vs the iidim( Bdim ) chord. And now the third degree is a C major - a IIIb. Ouch! |
Or possibly C augmented [wince].
| Quote: |
| So If I'm using Numbers, I'd rather have 'em relative to the major key. |
I get that - I hadn't thought of using Roman numerals to notate charts for reading purposes. I guess that's what the Nashville Numbers system is all about. Where I come from the numbers are used mostly to try to make sense of what's already been played or written.
| Quote: |
| Music is big enough for multiple heresies |
ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French heresie, based on Latin haeresis, from Greek hairesis ‘choice’ . . . from haireisthai ‘choose.’ |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 9:53 am Re: Theory of a Key
|
|
| Les Cargill wrote: |
There really isn't a key of A minor. |
Pearls of wisdom like this are the reason that it is always better to learn music theory from the Steel Guitar Forum, rather than from Walter Piston's book. |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 9:54 am
|
|
| Steve English wrote: |
|
Yes! My philosophy in a nutshell. Genius is pain, and ignorance is bliss! |
|
|
|
Jim Means
From:
Missouri, USA
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 10:07 am Re: Theory of a Key
|
|
Pearls of wisdom like this are the reason that it is always better to learn music theory from the Steel Guitar Forum, rather than from Walter Piston's book.[/quote]
Doug,
I wish my understanding of music theory was much better. Which of Mr. Piston's books would you recommend for theory study.
Jim in Missouri |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 11:24 am Re: Theory of a Key
|
|
| Jim Means wrote: |
Which of Mr. Piston's books would you recommend for theory study.
|
"Harmony" by Walter Piston has been _the_ book since 1941. Google for free downloads. |
|
|
|
