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Author Topic:  Road steeler vrs. session steeler
Jody Carver


From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
Post  Posted 5 Jul 2001 7:01 pm    
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If you dont mind hearing "ancient history" here goes.

I was fortunate enough to do most all the steel work back in the 50's here in NYC at RCA Victor ,Columbia,Decca,etc,,,The union local 802 had nothing to do with anything other than take the dues and taxes.

There were a few very fine steel players back here then,,but some of them were not able to take "direction",,,I found that to be the key.

The well known players could read the charts etc,,,I was poor at reading,,if it were not for musicians like Tony Mottola, Al Caiola,George Barnes, Chet etc etc,,,I would have probably never made it,,,they helped me through charts that were not written for steel guitar.

I had heard many stories where the steel player told the arranger,,he was unable to play the charts as written,,,there is nothing more that an arranger wants to hear to hear that someone critisizes his work.

I sweat through many sessions and caused much overtime(the musicians loved me) just to get the parts right. I like many others were asked to play like Roy Wiggins,,,or J.Byrd or Speedy or Noel,,,if I could have done justice to any of those great players I would have .I didnt however tell the arrangers,,"well if you want Jerry Byrd,,,GO GET HIM,,,or any of the other negatives thrown at the arrangers.

The result?? when they saw I could take direction and had difficulty in reading the charts,,,I didnt "knock the arranger" I tried harder,,,,they then often would ask me if I had any of my own ideas...I said well,,I will try and asked them if they approved of my choice of fills or a part to play.

They accepted me for my ability to take direction & I got the job done,,,one time in particular I was recording with Vaughn Monroes orchestra,,,it was intimidating to see all those musicians around me,,,french horns,,,violin section, brass section and me with my fender triple neck guitar.

The arranger wrote a part for me,,,that was out of sight for the steel,,Tony Mottola played it for me and said ,,,can you play this?? I said Tony I cant,,he said neither can I if I were playing your guitar,,the arranger walked over and said ,,,Whats The problem?? I replied I think its me,,,he looked at me like??????
Vaughn Monroe walked over from the mike and said,,,,son,,,can you do something you feel will fit,,I said I would try,,but again said
there was nothing wrong with the original arrangemnent,,just that I couldnt get into it.

I played what I felt would fit. The arranger walked over and said,,,hey Jody,,,damm that does sound good,,Vaughn Monroe looked over and smiled at me. I did it,,,,hey listen to this,,on the playback all the musicians applauded me,,,I not only got them 1 and 1/2 hours overtime but they knew I was sweating it,,,I took direction and always found it easy after that.

All recordings later on at RCA were given over to Chet by Steve Sholes to be done in Nashville,,,but what I did when I did was because I was able to take direction,,,I think maybe it was different then ,,but it worked for me...now you guys can continue, sorry to take up so much space,,you can tell me when to quit,,,I can take direction...I have been married for 47 years,,,it comes in handy with my wife too,,,I listen to her too.
She thinks she is the arranger,,most times she is..she arranges for me to do all the chores around the house....oop's gotta take the pups out,,,they dont take direction,,
they "Ad Lib" if I dont hurry,,,,
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Dan Tyack

 

From:
Olympia, WA USA
Post  Posted 5 Jul 2001 7:34 pm    
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Jody, that goes in my keeper file, what a great story. I've got to admit, I've done some reading dates where I was totally out of my league. On some of them (especially the Mexican pop music I used to do in LA) the producer was totally cool with me coming up with my own stuff (it helped that he didn't speak any English, nor me Spanish). But on most of them, I just kind of muddled through. Poorly. What an honest approach to simply say you couldn't cut it. That takes the kind of self confidence that I never had in my first session career. I'm going to take your lead the next time I come across that.....



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Dan Tyack

 

From:
Olympia, WA USA
Post  Posted 5 Jul 2001 7:36 pm    
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Jody, another question. I have been a fan of George Barnes for a while. What a sweet vibrato that guy had. Was he a fan of the steel at all (to my ears it sounds like he was, like the later session player Larry Carlton)?

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John DeBoalt


From:
Harrisville New York USA
Post  Posted 5 Jul 2001 8:41 pm    
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I'm old enough to remember when some singers sound/style was distingushed by the style of the steel player i.e Roy Wiggins with Mr. Arnold, Johnny Siebert with Carl Smith, Don Helms with Hank ect. The list goes on. Producers need to produce radio friendly songs, and will draw on a sound as long as it will sell, remember when Charlie McCoy and his harp were all over the radio. A singers style is no longer wedded to his band, the backround music is just there to give the music the flavor of the month. The current trend, for the sake of air play and record sales, is to get the instrumental mix as close to pop and soft rock as possible. ( Get the drums and guitar bangers out front ) mix the steel in the backround, so the flavor isn't too country. But you have to keep a measure of steel and fiddle, or you can't call it country, and the country fans will leave. The road players will learn the studio licks for the artist's road show,and the days of great stylistic bands like the Texas Troubadors, and the Strangers will be a thing of the past. Of course the only people who will feel cheated are those who appreciate artists with a truly individual sound,rather than one concocked for radio consumption.
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Dave Robbins

 

From:
Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 5 Jul 2001 8:42 pm    
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Dan,
I would have thought that one who claims to be so familiar with Jean Shepard's music would have known that it was "Stu Basore" who played on Jean's "Slippin' Away," not Pete!
Other musicians used on Jean's albums back in those day were Speedy West (Capital Records), Walter Haynes, Buddy Emmons, and Ralf Mooney, etc,etc.
"I have even cut with her!"

Dave (her "current road/Opry player" of nearly 10 years. Imagine how many times I have played Dear John! At least I know the material.)

[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 05 July 2001 at 09:48 PM.]

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Miguel e Smith

 

From:
Phoenix, AZ
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 7:08 am    
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I really agree with Bobby. Man, let's just dig who we dig and let it go at that. Honesty like Jody's above really brings home life as it really is (Thanks Jody!) You know, I'm happy to be alive and excited about playing again (although I personally hate my own playing...is that allowed after what I said above?). We all get frustrated with ourselves or our situations, but it's always kind-of pissed me off enough to make a change..usually in myself (in this case....my playing). But no matter how much I work at it or how much better I get, I will never please everyone all the time, I won't get all the work there is to have, I won't make all the money out there and I can't control whirled peas.
A very successful friend in the music biz once told me that "...the music industry is one of heartache and disappointment. If you can't handle that, you should consider doing something else." This guy had done so much and has a list a mile long of accomplishments, but he said he also could write volumes about folks stabbing him in the back. I suspect that same thing happens in the plumbing industry too.
Find something to be happy about (most of the time) and stick with it. Blow off the crud, no matter how painful or unfair...it's important.
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Jody Carver


From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 7:42 am    
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Dan,,,
To answer your question re'George Barnes having a "fancy to steel guitar" yes he did
he would show expression on his face as I would "stumble" through arrangements,,,he supported me many times re,arrangements that were written for me,,,that just didnt fit steel guitar.

His reputation and knowledge of the recording
procedure convinvced those in charge of the session,,,,to let "me do it my way".

I was not a great player by any stretch,,but I was able to listen to what was around me & how and where I could find a place to do what was expected of me.

I did a session with Elton Britt years ago & Chet was the "leader" on the date,,,they had no written arrangements,,,Chet asked me what I would like to do for a solo part,,,and I did what I thought fit the tune as well as the theme & feeling at that moment.

Chet & all on the session thought it was one of the best I ever did,,,simple, short ,tasty
etc...I have to agree ,,I was good that day,
I never listened to any of the recordings I did back then,,,I wasnt in love with my self
It was my job,,no self admiration,,,
but did this back in the late 50's and heard it for the first time in 1988,,,,on the radio
played by a western swing radio show.

I was able to get a copy of the record & listen to it often now,,,I wasn't too bad back then,,,long stories are my specialty,,,I answered your question with a long story,,,but I get wrapped up sometimes
and forget myself....sorry to take so much space,,,the tune was on RCA Victor Elton Britt,,,"Lookin Around" was the title,,,,it was an appropriate title for me as well,,,as I was "lookin around" not to make an "ass" of myself,,,I was lucky that day.

Many "ass" dates followed however,,,but Im still here doing the same thing....be well
this is a nice thread,,,happy to be a part of it,,,sorry for the length of space I took
sorry ,,,,bOb Jody This is one of my short stories,,,you ought to hear the "long ones;
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Leroy Riggs

 

From:
Looney Tunes, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 8:05 am    
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Hi Jody,

Quote:
long stories are my specialty


I love it! I don't know many steelers personally that talk up on the Forum so it is posts like yours that I find really interesting.

My original post was a simple question but I have learned a lot from all the replys. I have enjoyed this one.

Leroy

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Mike Cass

 

Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 9:16 am    
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Miguel....If you're revamping your chops, i'll take the throwaways

Dave Robbins

 

From:
Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 9:24 am    
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Leroy,
you have heard from those at the top of their profession and those at the bottom, with this topic. There have been those who claim there is "no political influence" and those who have been affected by it. And, because this is an "open forum" where anyone has a right to their view or opinion, you have heard various opinions whether "founded" or not.
I beleive you have your answer. This topic has been debated and argued over, hashed and re-hashed, but it is time for you to make up your own mind about what you beleive the truth to be. You have heard from Paul Franklin, who is no doubt experiencing the enjoyment of success at his turn at the top. He has made his "mark", and his money. You've also heard from those working hard to try to get to the top and make their own "mark" in this day-to-day, dog eat dog business. And, you have heard also from "Dan" out on the west coast about his limited time of experience here in this town.
Anyone can come here and see for their self. They can try "scratchin' and diggin', people skills, ability, politics or whatever" it takes and if you don't try you'll never know. You can try and give up, as so many have, and you'll still never really know. Or, you can come here and compete on a consistant basis with the rest of us hard working musicians and wait your turn at the "brass ring."
Personally, I would rather exercise "hard work" and perserverance for the "chance" to be just one of those trying to even be considered in the worlds "greatest" musicians that this town is known for (not that I'll ever make it).
It is easy for someone like "Dan" out west, who obviously only tried Nashville for short time and has gone on to make his living somewhere else, to set at a distance and express his opinion about a town he knows very little about. Of course, whether "you" survive here or not is no skin off his nose, He made his living elsewhere.
So it is up to you "Leroy" to decide from the freedom of opinions expressed here on this forum.
As for me, I have my own answer based on my own experience. I live here, work here, and know intimately from the inside what is involved to "exist".
I thought the answer had been summed up eloquently, quickly, and concisely, by Buddy Emmons with his reply to this post. At that point, there was nothing left to be said. As far as I was concerned, bOb could have closed this topic right then. But, you have "Dan" who inspite of those in the know, continued to stress his own point of view, nearly to the point of implying that Buddy doesn't know as much as him.
Are there politics in Nashville? Of course there are! Just ask anyone, except those who have so much to gain from it, and you'll find it so.
Well, I have had enough. The question at the beginning of this topic has been answered. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who continued to stress their point after Buddy's reply was only inciting an arguement. I'll not be a part of it any further.
It is time for me to get off this computer and get back to the real world and try to make my own "mark". "Dan" can continue to live in the fantasy world he has created, I'm sure it will not affect his income. But, I've got better things to do.
Leroy, goodluck to you in whatever answer you choose believe. Im through, I'll not be back to this topic.

Dave
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Mike Sweeney


From:
Nashville,TN,USA
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 9:43 am    
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After reading about the [brass ring]everybody is reaching for I thought for a few days and decided to put in my say. I also scratch and dig here in Nashville and have for the last eleven years and although I haven't gone hungry I aint got rich either. I work my club gig seven nights a week and pick up a little session now and then. I wish I were doing more sessions but that's how it is [feast or famine]and I'm happy to get it when I do. But back to the brass ring. I also have goals but before the brass ring gets there enjoy the ride. Remember why you started playing music to start with. All ball players can't be in the majors. Mike Sweeney
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Herb Steiner

 

From:
Spicewood TX 78669
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 9:51 am    
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Quote:
I also have goals but before the brass ring gets there enjoy the ride. Remember why you started playing music to start with.


Amen, brother.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

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Miguel e Smith

 

From:
Phoenix, AZ
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 10:11 am    
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See....there's that happy thingy I was talkin' about...good way of wording it. P.S.; Mike C., Throw them away? I forgot all the good ones. But, they belong to everyone else anyway...I just borrowed them for awhile. : )
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Leroy Riggs

 

From:
Looney Tunes, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 11:03 am    
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Dave,

Quote:
So it is up to you "Leroy" to decide from the freedom of opinions expressed here on this forum.


I really have had a lot of input for me to digest. I really learned much more than I had expected. (I especially learned how to pull peoples chains with a simple question. )

But I also understand how much hard disk space this thread is taking. b0b, it is ok by me to close it if you wish.

Thanks,

L...

[This message was edited by Leroy Riggs on 06 July 2001 at 12:07 PM.]

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Jody Carver


From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 11:28 am    
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Leroy.

I have stayed away from the Forum for reasons
of my own,,,,however I want you to know that
I enjoyed particpating in your thread.

There should be no hard feelings,,,that is the reason I came back,,,to have fun and exchange ideas and opinions,,,I took the good advice from Jack Stoner,,Ricky Davis, Gene Jones,and many others to "come back" Herb Steiner as well encouraged me "Not To Quit"

I hope there are "no hard feelings" re this thread,,,it was a good one,,,,,,I guess its a bit different these days with so many people trying to get work,,,and difficult for many with much talent to get what they are only looking for,,,to make a living,,thats what it's all about,,,be well
Good thread,,,,everyone's a friend here...
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Gene Jones

 

From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 12:00 pm    
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Mike & Herbs sentiments agree with mine, which has always been:

"Happiness is found along the way....not just at the end of the road".
www.genejones.com
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Bobbe Seymour

 

From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 12:40 pm    
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Everyone has asked me why I have stayed out of this heated topic, Well, I'll tell you.
Mike Cass and Dave Robbins have said everything I would have said anyway,so why bother getting into it! By the way Dave, It was me on Jean Shepards,"Virginia",and a couple others Iv'e forgotten,as It was a long time ago. My first masters in Nashville.For many years ,I have been a road and studio player and don't really like either. The ideal setup is a club job where you own the club in downtown Nashville and have a good manager to run the place and you run the band,take the money, fame and glory and go home to sleep in your own bed every night. I might do this some day, but for now,I'm busy doing all three!
Dave and Mike,you really said it the way it really is here in Nashville,I know, I've been here a long time and have seen it evolve.You seem to have shut down the people that didn't know as much as they thought they did,GREAT.Anyone want to know how it really is ,reread the Dave Robbins and Mike Cass posts.You may never get another chance to see such blatent truth,honesty and accuracy in your lifetime.Bob hempker? I concur!Your always right,so far!
This is a post for everyone but the pros came out to play on this one! Yea!
Bobbe----(best one ever!)
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Jody Carver


From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 1:59 pm    
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Hey Bobbe...after that which I have read,,I will never move to Nashville. Unless you can give me a job in your shop,,,I could just hang out and tell long stories about Leo Fender.

How much can you pay me ,,,besides room & board,,,& do I have to listen to you play often?? I'll take less money if I dont have to listen to you play. I had a home all lined up till I read this thread,,,Im staying here.

Bobbe that town cannot have 2 legends if I come,,,you will have to "Move It On Over"
cause an "old dogs movin in " you are older than me though,,,but anyhow,,,let me know about the gig......Bobbe this is a great thread,,,how come you didnt start it??

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 06 July 2001 at 03:01 PM.]

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Billy Johnson

 

From:
Nashville, Tn, USA
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 2:12 pm    
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After reading all the posts on this thread, it interesting to click on profiles to find that only "20" out of the all people who posted actually have "musician" or "steel player" down for their occupation. One goes without sayin (Paul).

[This message was edited by Billy Johnson on 06 July 2001 at 03:15 PM.]

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Jody Carver


From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2001 2:33 pm    
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uh oh....I had better update my "profile" I hate my "profile" I think I look better from the "front"

What a great thread,,,its almost like havin fun,,,,almost? It is.......
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