| Author |
Topic: C6 Copedant |
Cody Coombs
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 2:53 pm |
|
Hi all,
Im wanting to add some Left Knee levers to my C6 neck. (LKL, LKV, LKR) Im curious of those who have these levers on your back neck, what is your copedant? Im already finding the fourth string lowering is a change i am missing. I know there’s a million options, but as far as a standard, if there is one what would it be?
Thanks,
Cody |
|
|
|
Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 3:10 pm
|
|
I used Paul Franklin's copedence which moves the typical Boo-wa from the 8th pedal to LKL. I find that nice to have that change on the lever because 8th pedal can be hard to reach with bad knees and feet.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 3:49 pm
|
|
Cody, I'm assuming that you raise and lower your 3rd string on your right knee, so to complete the conventional setup, you should raise and lower 4 a half step on the left.
With P5 this will give you the 7b5 and 7#5 chords amongst other things.
As we mostly use P8 solely for the purpose of raising string 7, I have that single change on the vertical and only occasionally use the full boo-wah.
Hope these suggestions help.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Cody Coombs
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 4:08 pm
|
|
At the moment my third string lowers with my RKL and my fourth string raises on the RKR. I’m considering adding an extra pull rod to the RKR to raise my eighth string as well; 4 and 8 to an A-A# what I see Paul Franklin has.
As far as my pedals 4-8, they are all standard. |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 5:34 pm
|
|
If you’re adding a rod to RKR you might want to consider keeping that A-Bb on 4 but instead of duplicating it on string 8, lower 8 on that same lever to Ab while 4 goes to Bb…
With P6 it gives you a whole world of Ab maj7/9 and F min 9/11.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 29 Apr 2024 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Cody Coombs
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 6:06 pm
|
|
| If I’m understanding what you’re saying, RKR would raise string 4 and lower string 8? |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 6:41 pm
|
|
Yes. A-Bb on 4 and A - Ab on 8, same lever.
I’m assuming you are raising 4 already to Bb not to B natural… |
|
|
|
Cody Coombs
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 29 Apr 2024 8:49 pm
|
|
| That is correct, my RKR raises A to B flat. |
|
|
|
Cody Coombs
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 30 Apr 2024 6:07 pm
|
|
| Wouldn’t I want to lower my strings 4 and 8 together, and raise my strings 4 and 8 together? Or do those notes conflict each other somehow? |
|
|
|
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
|
Posted 30 Apr 2024 6:18 pm
|
|
To the best of my knowledge this is essentially the full Emmons copedant, and basically what several other steelers I have spoken with are using.
 |
|
|
|
Cody Coombs
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 1 May 2024 3:08 am
|
|
Here’s what I’ve come to conclusion, it might be a good start for me as it will keep me in the realm of simplicity (majors, minors, 7ths, etc.)
Pedal 4 strings 4,8 - A to B
Pedal 5 strings 1,5,9,10 - D to D#, G to F#, F to F#, C to D
Pedal 6 strings 2,6 - E to F, E to D#
Pedal 7 strings 3,4 - C to D, A to B
Pedal 8 strings 7,9,10 - C to C#, F to D#, C to A
CLKL strings 4,8 - A to Ab, A to G OR JUST string 3 - C to C#
CLKV string 1 - D to Eb OR strings 2,6 E to Eb, E to F (reverse of pedal 6)
CLKR strings 3,7 - C to C#, C to C# OR strings 4,8 - A to Ab, A to Ab
RKL strings 3 - C to B
RKR strings 4,8 - A to A#, A to A#
I know LKLand LKR have similar options, I suppose I’m curious which would provide the most options and where would I need to place them to not conflict any other pedals or levers?
I feel like I’m getting somewhere at this point with what I want to add on these levers!
Thanks,
Cody |
|
|
|
Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
|
Posted 1 May 2024 5:30 am
|
|
| Cody Coombs wrote: |
Here’s what I’ve come to conclusion, it might be a good start for me as it will keep me in the realm of simplicity (majors, minors, 7ths, etc.)
Pedal 4 strings 4,8 - A to B
Pedal 5 strings 1,5,9,10 - D to D#, G to F#, F to F#, C to D
Pedal 6 strings 2,6 - E to F, E to D#
Pedal 7 strings 3,4 - C to D, A to B
Pedal 8 strings 7,9,10 - C to C#, F to D#, C to A
CLKL strings 4,8 - A to Ab, A to G OR JUST string 3 - C to C#
CLKV string 1 - D to Eb OR strings 2,6 E to Eb, E to F (reverse of pedal 6)
CLKR strings 3,7 - C to C#, C to C# OR strings 4,8 - A to Ab, A to Ab
RKL strings 3 - C to B
RKR strings 4,8 - A to A#, A to A#
I know LKLand LKR have similar options, I suppose I’m curious which would provide the most options and where would I need to place them to not conflict any other pedals or levers?
I feel like I’m getting somewhere at this point with what I want to add on these levers!
Thanks,
Cody |
Cody if you ever get near Walla Walla, look me up and you can try my setup.
This works really well for me ... I can easily use my Vertical raising the A's with both the 5th and 6th pedal, as well as my M(C)KR where I lower the A's ... this configuration also makes it easy for me to go from lowering the A's to raising them pretty seamlessly. Also on my Rittenberry I changed the 4th pedal to the "reverse 6th" pedal that Buck Reid uses. I haven't done that to my MSA yet but may. My MKL I believe is commonly known as the "Reece" change putting that F in the middle of the tuning in a little different way than the reverse 6th pedal does.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 1 May 2024 7:48 am
|
|
Cody, yes the parallel motion of A to Bb on both strings is great, for sure.
The option of having 4 go up a half step to Bb and 8 go down a half to Ab is something I've experimented with and found to be useful.
Just for reference and clarity here it simply means that combined with pedal 6, you get this:
D
F
C
Bb
G
Eb
C
Ab
F
C
So musically speaking, the Ab on string 8 becomes the root of Ab maj 7/9/13 and you get the #11 too if you have a D on string 1.
The F on string 9 is the relative minor of it all.
All that stuff is still there if you only raise 4 to Bb, but lowering 8 to Ab gives it all a root note. Not essential, just an option. |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 2 May 2024 3:08 am
|
|
My 12 string C6th is not totally "standard", as among other "things" I have 8 levers on it.
I have the G-to-F whole step drop on my RKV (yes, RKV!). I also drop E just below a whole step on RKR and can hold both together.
My C-to-C# raise is on a PEDAL to the left of "P5" (your "two-below" pedal, as Jeff Newman used to call it). I play them like "A&B" with the foot over both.
Being able to have both engaged (open A6th/F#m7) PLUS adding the E-to-D whole step drop goes into the same direction as dropping the G-to-F:
The G-to-F drop is a big gateway into upper structures and opens up the relative minor (open Dm11th), relative to the FM9th chord off the F string... and so much more.
In any event, from what I am believing to see what you are trying to achieve, you would want to look at Paul Franklin's and Doug Jernigan's C6th setups. PF has the "P8" change "torn" in two changes to enable him more versatility of the change, if I remember right. And he too, I believe has the G-to-F drop.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 2 May 2024 1:28 pm
|
|
JD, is that G-F lower on string 5 sometimes referred to as the 'Maurice' change?
Presumably it is similar to a pedal he had on Bb6..
I guess among other things it creates a similar voicing that P4 would on C6, in creating a Root/Maj 7 rub on adjacent strings.. |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 3 May 2024 1:50 am
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
JD, is that G-F lower on string 5 sometimes referred to as the 'Maurice' change?
Presumably it is similar to a pedal he had on Bb6..
I guess among other things it creates a similar voicing that P4 would on C6, in creating a Root/Maj 7 rub on adjacent strings.. |
The Maurice-change is often later referred to as the “Doug Jernigan”-change and Doug Jernigan confirmed to me a few months ago again that he had it off Maurice’s idea. I’ve seen older setup charts of Paul Franklin’s C6th having a version of it too. It has morphed from player to player.
I BELIEVE both Dough Jernigan and Paul Franklin don't currently carry that change anymore. My version is closer to Doug’s even though, like Maurice I don’t have a tuning root (C on C6th) on what would be most’s 10th string but rather a 2nd (D to C6th or on Maurice’s C on Bb6t).
I adapted my version off Doug Jernigan’s older setup, since sadly Maurice is not around to answer my questions anymore.
Jody Cameron’s youtube videos may be your best visual source to help you undrstand better some aspects of that pedal:
This one discusses the G-to-F whole step drop at around 2:30 and also the "Doug Jernigan Pedal" at around 3:00 (when he plays the "V"):
https://youtu.be/G61MOXDJlk0
Here "discovering" some of the "Cool Stuff" the Maurice Pedal does at 1:37 as a V a fret below the 8th-string rooted ii-m.: https://youtu.be/-ZeSMCysEs0
The uses of both changes, like with most changes are scattered all over the fretboard.
I hope that somewhat answers your question!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 3 May 2024 8:01 am
|
|
Aha, that Jernigan pedal is interesting. I've wondered about that, as I've seen it on other players' charts like Buddy Cage and Jimmy Crawford. For clarity, the Eb/Bb/C#/F on 9876. That complexity of harmony is slightly above my pay grade.  Very cool though.
But that string 5, G-F ( and 10C - D ), is just beautiful sounding. Which pedal did that relate to on Maurice's Bb6?
Hope this isn't too much of a topic drift here... |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 4 May 2024 12:47 am
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
Aha, that Jernigan pedal is interesting. I've wondered about that, as I've seen it on other players' charts like Buddy Cage and Jimmy Crawford. For clarity, the Eb/Bb/C#/F on 9876. That complexity of harmony is slightly above my pay grade. Very cool though.
But that string 5, G-F ( and 10C - D ), is just beautiful sounding. Which pedal did that relate to on Maurice's Bb6?
Hope this isn't too much of a topic drift here... |
There is a LOT that can be done with that pedal beyond the easy cascading access to I, vi, VI, ii, V demonstrated by Jody Camron. And the playing can be simplified harmonically by using wide-grip 3-note shell-voicings typically used on that tuning. Some fingering do change, and yes, while it can strum too, the intricacies and extrapolated possibilities require careful string choices. It becomes "harp-playing" unlike the "thumb-take+2-picks"-Swing style more reminiscent of those having swung the West in great bands like the Brazos Valley Boys.
I use the Doug Jernigan version a LOT and it adds a unique harmonic capability to the tuning, which in PART can be replicated by using P6 with the C-to-B-drop or as Jody Cameron also demonstrates in above videos; P5 with the A-to-G#-drop (which is a more common add on with a longer history.).
I have only once briefly had the pleasure to sit at Maurice's Bb6th guitar in 2007. I hadn't played seriously for 7 years! I did not quite find my way around it at first because the upper register of his Bb6th was different too. I could deal with his C6th-non-pedal and this is pretty much what I have on my C6th PSG now, except that (because of having pedals) I don't have the high G and rather a low Bb (YES, on my C6th) below my low D (replacing most of y'all's low C)... so from what would be your 7th string C, I go down C (Maj), A (relative minor to above C), F (Maj and 4th to C), D (relative minor to above F) and Bb (Maj, again the 4th to F... which is also the minor third of it's relative minor; Gm).
Maurice thought in ROOT TRACKERS (those strings above described) and the whole set of other roots relative to each others. So, where ever he was, without looking at fret numbers, he knew which string ("Tracker") on that fret and the ones close left an right he had the roots to all the other degrees.
This allows you to play any tune with all 12 cords in any of their qualities in ANY key within max 3 frets in any of 4 positions of an octave's length of the strings... in average every 3 frets!
Best way to learn that is first WITHOUT using the pedals, using single note arepeggiation and melody playing, even blues or jazz "riffing".
Anyways, I am wearing off too far.
To answer your question about Maurice's version of the "Maurice Change"... I would, since I did not get experienced with Maurice's personal Bb6th, refer to this thread.
I believe Forum contributor Christofer Woitach plays one of Maurice's later Bb6th setups (although I suspect it's not the last one, on which he had moved some main changes up from pedals to levers for what I believe were some personal reasons he was experiencing at that time).
Here's a thread about the Bb6th subject and you might find a more definite answer to how HIS Pedal worked.
I only gather that it did the same thing but a fret of so apart, as it altered the tuning differently.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=379373
The thread is only 2 years old, and I see my own post and find how much I changed my C6th since. (I am getting there, thou).
Funny story to close off, I've told before.
In spring of 2000 I went to my last steel guitar convention in Dallas. I had a prototype PSG with me I wanted Maurice to give me some feedback on.
Anyways, Maurice rushed in in the morning because he had some other engagements that week end, just to try the guitar but was to play Saturday on the main stage. He came in with a Jazz Quartet or Quintet with even some horn players and laid down, in my opinion one of his best renditions ever.
As it was normal, there was always a small crowd of name players "hanging out" in a rear corner of the stage while the next guy was playing. I rmember Hall Rug, Bobbe Bowman and I would say likely John Hughey chatting there when suddenly Hal Rug turned around staring at Maurice reeling out some of his advanced chord-chains in amazement and calling the other two's attention, they all looked at Maurice, no more chatting for a minute.
Later after his show, I heard comments by them about Maurice's Bb6th tuning and all IT could do. The funny part is, that that night Maurice played the green-black E9th-Universal!
When you listen to Jazzmen on Piano, Guitar, etc talking, you realize that they experiment and grow a "Bag of knowledge" about how certain cords can be played over something completely different... "substitution" is only a gateway to an obscure universe of oddities. Some can be trace back to inversions, alterations, connections to scales and finally altered scales... or as James Brown would say "yeah (it may be "wrong"), but doesn't it sound goooood?".
Maurice did not invent chords and he could tickle most of what he was famous for out of a basic C6th with 5&1... and even surprised us with his S12 NON-pedal steel, because he had a harmonic affinity not many would have.
And he was extremely analytic... to the point of a scientist.
From playing in 10ths (heard all throughout the Universal Direction Album) extensively, which is nothing out of this world except maybe on guitars and steel to chord-chains built of IV/V-structures or Sus4 or Sus2 Chords (the last thing he showed me out of not even asking), and rootless upper harmony voicings, reeled out often alluding to the whole/half or half/whole diminished relationship thru a whole progression, he had his own style.
What fascinates me the most, he did never stagnate, and instead evolved further.
... I've got to go practice now! ... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 4 May 2024 10:00 am
|
|
| Quote: |
What fascinates me the most, he did never stagnate, and instead evolved further.
... I've got to go practice now! ... |
...haha great stuff. Thanks for the thoughtful reply JD.
And I hope this is helping Cody in some kind of way with the copedent direction.
AF |
|
|
|
