Is it worth it? Where to begin?? Computer stuff...

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

I am currently designing a new guitar on graph paper. I do enjoy this crude method, ( it worked for many of the great builders of the past) I am however at least considering the thought that I should learn how to use basic computer design. Time is already scarce and this just seems like a huge setback, learning curve. What are the most user friendly cheap simple programs? Maybe I should take a few classes at the community college. Hmmm..

I feel like the first step would be learning a program, then I suppose I could consider a small CNC router or mill which would expand my possibilities quite a bit. Certainly it would make some very tedious jobs fast and time is my biggest hurdle. Of course there would be the learning curve to using these as well and a substantial investment. Is it worth it? I plan on building instruments for the rest of my life so hopefully at least 20 to 30 more years. This stuff isn't going away I noticed.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Tim let me say you can spend a lot of time learning and coming up with concepts can be more time consuming BUT when it comes to refining and iteration and manufacture the time saved makes up for the initial investment in spades.

Look at fusion 360 which there is a free version for amateurs.

I am getting to a stage where a cnc would be useful but picking the right one is a challenge.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Tim let me say you can spend a lot of time learning and coming up with concepts can be more time consuming BUT when it comes to refining and iteration and manufacture the time saved makes up for the initial investment in spades.

Look at fusion 360 which there is a free version for amateurs.

Chris Harwood · From: Kentucky, USA

Your other build was innovative and original. I'd go with that, make them custom and go from there.

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

John Hyland · From: South Australia

CAD & CNC really benefit from repetition. While you maybe considering one-off instruments of course there is significant repetition in a single pedal steel. Also it gives you an opportunity to prototype annd iterate a design to make the one-off better.

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

Hello from GeorgeBoards Lap Steel Guitars.

When you say I want to make instruments for the rest of my life , Can you be more specific?

Lap Steels - Pedal Steels - violins ?

The reason I ask, is because the use of CNC machinery and computer programs to operate - design and so on can vary quite a bit.

Having been in the Lap Steel Guitar manufacturing biz for 30 years, I can impart a ton of useful information once I know what your more specific goals are.

If you are looking to go into business making lap steels I have some super opportunities available that can save you 10's of thousands of dollars and reduce learning curves by decades too.
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GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel

Greg Forsyth · From: Colorado, USA

Tim,
Recently I was introduced to a cnc controlled handheld router called Shaper Origin. Intriguing product
that seems to be fairly easy to figure out how to use. Please check out their website for more insight to the machine

George Piburn · From: The Land of Enchantment New Mexico

How close to Lincoln are you?

There is a makerspace there -- that is the ticket to what you seek to do.
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

Javier Schulenburg · From: Austria

For what it's worth, 3d printing skills might be worth it if you are planning to cast one off keyheads as a mold

Tim Toberer · From: Nebraska, USA

I still haven't taken the dive yet, but I do see the beauty in this technology!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVDTbYhF_UY&list=PLtoC5TIxpwGWjz22GuI-RUKm6MGpMKKpO&index=1

Carl Mayer · From: Richmond, Virginia, USA

I really like the older versions of sketchup (2017 sketchup make was the last good free one, the newer web based versions I find hard to use). I do most all my design stuff on that and if you export to stl you can use the geometries for finite element modeling or 3D printing or whatever. I even prefer it to any of the autocad/space claim paid modeling software I can use through work though that could just be familiarity. Only downside is it doesn’t have good tools for all the labels and callouts for professional mechanical drawings if you need to send something out to a machine shop or something but if it’s for your own use that’s no problem

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I was the last class to graduate from precision engineering in Switzerland off drafting tables. We had just gotten the first batch of computers with a "CAD" in the 80's.

I must say, that I would LOVE to be able to use a 3D CAD efficiently, but I must also say that I have observed that most that did only learn on these software applications, CANNOT "build lines". I see that today with architecture too, they depend on the program to "create" it and it's full of "deals". can draw a roof as complex as it may be from line construction.

On the other hand, to me the advantage of 3D CAD is that nowadays you can have your prototyping done anywhere in the world by the push of and email with the file and kicking the "pay NOW" on your PayPal and expect the parts in a ridiculously fast time.

I am at the same crossroads as the OP.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

It is never too late to learn. My first employment as an architect was on the drafting table and my first exposure to CAD was a room with a large glass “tardis” holding a computer. It only produced lines. Same as my next job a dedicated technician would draw up the lines with numeric inputs. Not long later I discovered 3d CAD where you draw and assemble 3d elements and the rest as they say is history. Converting construction CAD into machine elements (ie pedal steel parts) is sometimes a challenge. One day I will try fusion 360.
Regarding making of prototypes it is certainly an advantage to have a printer as there are always many more than one prototype needed for each element.
My original intent was to make part prototypes with the intent to use the shape to make a metal part but so far I have been able to make key elements such as the fingers that work. The key has been to design the element so the torsion and rotation forces are on the same axis, that is NO twisting force where unlike metal fingers which typically have rods pass through bent tangs which are offset from the axle rotation. I’m sure this approach would benefit all metal PSG mechanisms too.
Multi axis CNC machines are still too expensive as is 3d metal printing.

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

I am a retired IT guy who put in 40 plus years on everything from mainframes to web based systems. I've also built musical instruments since the early 70's, and somehow CAD/CNC seemed to be a convergence of my various geekhoods. I've been doing 3D CAD and CNC work since the early 2000's and worked with computer based motion control systems from way earlier.

My background was in engineering, and I was already comfortable with traditional mechanical drawing, so early 2D Autocad came pretty naturally. 3D modeling and surface building took some doing, but learning was fun (and I'm still learning it).

CAD/CNC isn't an inexpensive thing to get into. Fortunately, I set up my rigs and my software back when I was still working and could afford to do it. Built my own CNC machines (with some help from a few companies who machined some parts for me on their own CNC machines). I couldn't afford to get into it from scratch now.

For me, it's still more about the fun than anything else. I did some production instruments for a while using CNC, but it was still sort of an exercise and challenge for me more than a money making venture. I did make enough money off of my ventures to pay for all of my equipment and software and still make a bit on top of that.

So back to the original question--at least in my situation, where I made the investment in both money and effort to do CNC when I was in my mid 40's, it's paid off both financially and recreationally. I guess that nowadays, keeping up on CAD designing is probably more about staving off dementia than anything else! With the web based Autodesk "hobby license," which is no-cost, a huge amount of the up front cost is taken care of. Building a CNC router isn't all that difficult, so I'd say go for it, but understand that the learning curve is probably going to be frustrating for a while.

Dave

John Hyland · From: South Australia

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

Good link!

For what it's worth, I use UCCNC and a UC100 interface running Gecko drivers and steppers. Pretty heavy ballscrew drive system and Asian rail style linear bearings. A Colombo spindle and Delta VFD driving it.

I ran Mach 3 for a long time, and it was fine, but the UCCNC runs more reliably and smoother.

This was the stuff that was available when I built my machine, and the times have changed, but it all still works very well. I also did a CNC conversion of a Sieg Mini Mill for metal work. Put in ballscrews in place of the original lead screws, and for a little machine it works great. I've done a bunch of aluminum steel guitar parts on this one.

But they're both 3 axis, pretty basic machines. 3 axis still allows full 3D machining, but for some operations it takes a little more jigging up the workpiece and such than a 4 or 5 axis machine would require. However, anything more than a 3 axis machine translates to big bucks, as John said, and probably limits the ability to build it yourself (unless you're a lot more competent than I am!).

The kind of machines in John's link can work really well once you learn how to use them. Still, learning the machine is only half the battle. Learning the design software is probably the bigger challenge. Well worth the effort though, in my opinion.

As a sidenote, I've ended up buying more of my CNC parts from Canada and Australia than anywhere else. For software, UCCNC comes from Hungary. The CAM that I use--MadCAM is from Sweden. Rhino is the CAD I use, it's American. But I also use Vecric VCarve from Britain. We in the states seem to be a bit behind when it comes to hobby level CNC.

Dave

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Also to note is that as well as design software, usually additional software is required to generate the code which tells the 3d printer or CNC machine what movements to make. I know little about CNC programs but as far as I know the Mac are poorly supported but there are good options for 3d printing though.

That said Fusion 360 does it all (inc Mac) and if you re interested in this whole rabbit hole you might consider the hobby version which is free and according to their website will generate code for 2 and 3 axis CNC.
Here is a short YouTube which gives you a flavour of how it all works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsSWVtjp8c0

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