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Topic: Why Not 9ths? |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2022 6:14 am |
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I like add 9 tunings especially for country.
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I have theory that the more sophisticated lap steel tunings fell out of favor with the rise of pedals |
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I haven't decided on a tuning for my 8 string pull release steel yet. So many I want to try! I am leaning towards an E6th tuning that I can add the 9th and the 7th when I want them. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 25 Jul 2022 3:12 pm
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| Paul Strojan wrote: |
| I have theory that the more sophisticated lap steel tunings fell out of favor with the rise of pedals. |
Pedals meant a new direction with less movement, more speed and less emphasis on theory and knowing every note and chord cold and more on convenience.
This obviously changed over the years but I think the more complex tunings just kind of were put to the side with the advent of pedal steel. Almost like when people moved from horses to cars as a more effieicent and easier mode of transport. Lest we forget horses can still out manoeuvre a car (jumping, muddy terrain, grass, mountains, rivers) but takes years of skill to get to that point. - Kind of like lap steel guitar.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 19 Mar 2023 1:05 pm C9 Tuning
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I really like Open C on my regular/Spanish/armpit guitars, CGCGCE.
This week I’ve been playing around with some C variations on my 7-string lap steel guitars, one of which is a C9.
C G C E G Bb D and also C G C G Bb D E
It has a deep and growly bottom, with flat7s and add nines for blues, plus minor triads on top, and some other interesting extended chords. C G C E G Bb D has the m7b5 (E G Bb D). While C G C G Bb D E has the m6>>m7 easy slant (G Bb D E->F)
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database
Last edited by Allan Revich on 30 Mar 2023 1:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 19 Mar 2023 4:34 pm
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Add an F on top of that, and you have a common 8 string B11th variant but tuned up a half step!
9th tunings are really cool. One that is kind of forgotten is the A9th. Jerry Byrd used an A9th on the tune “Anytime, Anyday, Anywhere” and Jody Carver used it on the Hot Club of America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVG2_R7oJYY
Jerry Byrd A9th: E C# B G E C# A A
Jody Carver: E C# B G E C# B A |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 19 Mar 2023 7:29 pm
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| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
Add an F on top of that, and you have a common 8 string B11th variant but tuned up a half step!
9th tunings are really cool. One that is kind of forgotten is the A9th. Jerry Byrd used an A9th on the tune “Anytime, Anyday, Anywhere” and Jody Carver used it on the Hot Club of America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVG2_R7oJYY
Jerry Byrd A9th: E C# B G E C# A A
Jody Carver: E C# B G E C# B A |
Wow! Thanks for that Joe. I hadn’t considered the 11th possibility, and those A9 tunings are very interesting. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 20 Mar 2023 11:25 am
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That was some very fine playing! I guess it’s a good reason to play that piece on a lap steel tuned in G6.
I think that the versatility of 6th and 13th tunings is very well established, but that the utility of 9th tunings has been under-appreciated.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2023 5:26 pm
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I guess it all depends on what you want.
For me, tunings come down to two categories.
1. Hunt and peck.
Or
2. Whoop and ride.
The 6th tunings C6, A6, G6 are whoop and ride.
The 9ths, B11 C13 and to a certain extent the E13th are hunt and peck.
For me I like a whoop and ride tuning because I'm a free improvisor. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 21 Mar 2023 6:05 pm
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| Rich Arnold wrote: |
I guess it all depends on what you want.
For me, tunings come down to two categories.
1. Hunt and peck.
Or
2. Whoop and ride. |
I’d imagine all tunings start off as hunt and peck when first starting!
As I am sure you know, just lowering the middle D of your G tuning to C# is like B11th but in A. Just one string gives so many new sounds, and for me at least I can rely on a lot of the A6th stuff when I’m playing with B11th. (though my playing is still in the cluck and peck category). |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2023 5:26 am
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| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
I’d imagine all tunings start off as hunt and peck when first starting!
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My thoughts exactly. You can learn to freely improvise in any tuning. Tom Morrell etc. 6th type tunings seem by far the easiest, but I want big fat chords and they come up a bit short in that category. Oh how I would love to master 10 string E13! |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 23 Mar 2023 1:05 pm
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C6th IS Dm9th, it’s also FM7/9th. Modern C6th (typically PSG) tunings typically have a D at least on top, which creates also a Cm69th.
Likewise evidently A6th would be Bm9th and DM7/9th
I however sometimes wonder if putting a 2nd in between the rather wide M3rd interval from the root to the M3rd would be practical.
I do have a low D on my C6th pedals or no-pedals and wouldn’t give that up without a fight!
… JD.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2023 3:59 pm
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[/quote]
I’d imagine all tunings start off as hunt and peck when first starting![/quote]
No not all. Take for example the standard dobro tuning
D
B
G
D
B
G
Most people who start with this tuning can play simple songs right away. Same with the 6th tunings. There's nothing hunt and peck about those unless you are "special needs".
Now, beyond this, let's talk about improvising.
A person who doesn't really play much might logically assume that any tuning should be great to improvise in once you get used to it. That sounds logical but fails in pratice.
There was a person boasting on another forum about his jazz chops with the E13. I asked him to post a nice bebop tune for us at performance speed in that tuning.
I heard nothing from him. And never will.
Playing and internet jabber are 2 different worlds. R. |
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Rich Arnold
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2023 4:16 pm
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
I’d imagine all tunings start off as hunt and peck when first starting!
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My thoughts exactly. You can learn to freely improvise in any tuning. Tom Morrell etc. 6th type tunings seem by far the easiest, but I want big fat chords and they come up a bit short in that category. Oh how I would love to master 10 string E13! |
I have to agree with you about the E13 with 10 strings. That sounds like a sexy idea!! |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 26 Mar 2023 8:29 am
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Everyone loves a “big fat chord”! It seems to me that 9th tunings do not fall short at all in that regard.
I suppose the choice of 13th or 9th comes down to personal preference for the most part, at least with 5 note tunings.
Under a straight bar, 9ths give you major triads, minor triads, dom7, 9ths, diminished, m6, m7b5.
13ths give you major triads, minor triads, 6ths, dom7, m7, 13ths.
If you are willing to add more strings/notes then the argument becomes moot, since each note added opens up more overlap and more chordal possibilities.
I play mostly blues and free improvisation. For me 9th tunings like C9 and D9 provide the ideal mix of versatility and simplicity. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 26 Mar 2023 10:05 am Major 9th is kool
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A Major 9th is kool in any tuning because in those 5 notes you have the first major triad on the bottom 3 strings and the 5th major triad on the 3 top strings.
E G# B D# F# or in "C" it's C E G B D.
A nice bonus is the diminished triad on the middle 3 strings that has a new inversion every third fret up or down.
You also get a Minor 7 on the 4 top strings. Most of the rest of a scale is within 2 frets!
Not sure what else a nice fellow could ask for? 
That can be used in any other 6 or 8 string tuning.
Maybe that's why Bob (RIP Brother) liked it so much? 
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2023 2:22 am
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You can view Leavitt tuning as C9, with a Db (which is the b9) in the bass.
Low to High...
Db - b9th
E - 3rd
G - 5th
Bb - 7th
C - Root
D - 9th
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2023 6:48 am
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| Allan Revich wrote: |
Everyone loves a “big fat chord”! It seems to me that 9th tunings do not fall short at all in that regard.
I suppose the choice of 13th or 9th comes down to personal preference for the most part, at least with 5 note tunings.
Under a straight bar, 9ths give you major triads, minor triads, dom7, 9ths, diminished, m6, m7b5.
13ths give you major triads, minor triads, 6ths, dom7, m7, 13ths.
If you are willing to add more strings/notes then the argument becomes moot, since each note added opens up more overlap and more chordal possibilities.
I play mostly blues and free improvisation. For me 9th tunings like C9 and D9 provide the ideal mix of versatility and simplicity. |
I still consider myself a beginner going into my second year of this and I have tried a lot of tunings. In my experience beyond simple major tunings like G-A or E-D you get the most bang for your buck adding the 6th. An add 9 tuning is still very strummable, but when you add the dominant 7, which gives you the minor triad, it becomes a very strong flavor and much more hunt and peck. You also lose the symmetry of the tuning.
My ideal non pedal tuning is a 10 string E13 (low to high) B-D-E-F#-G#-B-C#-E-F#-G#. Having the dominant down low makes it easier to avoid when you don't want it. I played this tuning for a couple months and realized I just did not have the time that learning it would require. It is a doozy! Very harp like. I was progressing much quicker on A6 and C6. Now my search is taking me into the pedal world, but C6 and A6 non-pedal are still the bedrock. Lately when I want fat chords I tune the lower strings to get A13 G-B-C#-E-F#-A-C#-E. Keeping the A6 on the top 6 strings really helps. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2023 7:55 am
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I use E9 ... (hi to lo) E B G# F# E D ... for about half the songs I play.
Here is an example ... Kawohikukapulani
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 28 Mar 2023 12:41 am
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| David DeLoach wrote: |
| You can view Leavitt tuning as C9, with a Db (which is the b9) in the bass. |
And it is also very similar to B11th! With an extra string, if you add an F on top, you have the same top 5 strings of B11th up a half step (so C11th). And you also get nice root in there.
The relation with B11th is easy to see if the tuning is presented a half step lower: E (C# B A F# D# C) --the core Leavitt in parentheses.
When I was fooling around with extending the Leavitt to 8 strings, I ended up with: F Eb (D C Bb G E C#). So an F and an Eb on top.
The first string F can be the 5th of a 5th on top sixth chord like the top 4 strings of A6th on strings 1, 3, 5, and 6.
The second string Eb also serves as a root of a root on top sixth chord like the top 4 strings of Leon E13th, on strings 2, 4, 5, and 6.
So its like adding the top 4 strings of two familiar tunings to the Leavitt! How did you expand your Leavitt tuning to 8 strings?
I love your performance and tab for "What a Wonderful World" BTW... It's really clever with those little harp-like embellishments. Hope to see and hear more from you!
| Tim Toberer wrote: |
My ideal non pedal tuning is a 10 string E13 (low to high) B-D-E-F#-G#-B-C#-E-F#-G#. .... It is a doozy! Very harp like. |
Speaking of harp like, check out this youtube vid by Raphael McGregor of some Bach being played on a Fender Dual Pro.
The tuning is f# d# G# E B G# E D like the top 8 strings of pedal E9th. Funky RH technique too, but it works!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmxRcQhDbs
| Rick Aiello wrote: |
I use E9 ... (hi to lo) E B G# F# E D ... for about half the songs I play.
Here is an example ... Kawohikukapulani
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Gorgeous! Thanks for sharing that Rick! |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2023 5:13 am
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| Rick Aiello wrote: |
I use E9 ... (hi to lo) E B G# F# E D ... for about half the songs I play.
Here is an example ... Kawohikukapulani
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Nice! It is easy to forget how much music can be made on 6 strings. This tuning would be a more approachable gateway to an 8 or 10 string E13 as well. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2023 5:18 am
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| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
| Tim Toberer wrote: |
My ideal non pedal tuning is a 10 string E13 (low to high) B-D-E-F#-G#-B-C#-E-F#-G#. .... It is a doozy! Very harp like. |
Speaking of harp like, check out this youtube vid by Raphael McGregor of some Bach being played on a Fender Dual Pro.
The tuning is f# d# G# E B G# E D like the top 8 strings of pedal E9th. Funky RH technique too, but it works!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmxRcQhDbs
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That was incredible! |
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