Raising strings 3 &7 on C6th.?

Tommy Auldridge · From: Maryland, USA

I have a pedal on my C6th. neck that raises strings 3 & 7 from C to C# It's so useful, and I'm wondering if any other players are using this same change. If you have your first string tuned to a D note, Put the bar on the fifth fret, raise 3 & 7 with that pedal, and lower string 5 with pedal 5 and now you have the G note on the first string again. If you let up on pedal 5 it makes an Augmented. I've worked out some really cool stuff with that combination. You can play some chromatic runs in that position too. What are your thoughts on that idea. Thanks, Tommy.....

Sam Werbalowsky · From: New York, USA

I ditched the P4 A->B changes for this so I can use 4&5 to get a 6th chord 3 frets up.

John Swain · From: Winchester, Va

Tommy, Buddy had that in the 90's on his RKR on 3+7. Later he went back to just raising s3. I have it on my RKR,( check out Buck Reid's setup). With p5 it's A chord, with p6 F augmented, alone it's A7.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I only raise string 3 on my RKR. I have my pedal 8 on LKL, and if I want both strings raising to C# at the same time I just use both levers.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Tommy Detamore · From: Floresville, Texas

I bought a guitar a couple years ago that had the 3rd and 7th raise and immediately fell in love with it. It was like “where you been all my life baby?” 😜. I had to have it on my new Emmons. 😉👍🏻
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Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer

www.cherryridgestudio.com
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The problem with raising both together is that you lose the 7#9 chord got from raising 7 alone.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Well, you still get that with pedal 8.

Like Sam, I have the 3+7 raise on pedal 4 to combine with pedal 5. Couldn't live without it at this point.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Sure thing Dan, I wasn't quite thinking straight. Isn't it more usual to have the 3rd string raise on a lever? BE did that to use with pedal 5
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

I only raise 3rd string C via RKR.....leaving 7th string unchanged for Root of 4 note chords

My uses of 3rd string raise:

1) Raising 3rd string 3 frets UP from Open position = Dom 7th of the Open Position Chord

So at 3rd fret with RKR = C7th on str 8 thru 2,

2) Raising 3rd string 3 frets UP from Open position AND Pedal 5 at same time = Open 6th chord

So at 3rd fret with RKR AND Pedal 5 = C6th chord on strings 9 thru 1

Sound familiar?

Thanks -
Ron

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

It will also add an augmented 5th to the F based chords used with pedal 6. That's one of my most used uses for the 3rd string raise. I also use it to make the Am based chord into A major based chords, Sometimes used along with pedal 8 (on my LKL).
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I raise both Cs to C# (MKR), both As to A# (RKR), I lower both As to G# (RKL) and I lower just the 3rd string to B (MKL).

I have tried winding off the change on the lower strings because I read a post where someone pointed out what you miss by moving them all up-and-down.

I wound them back again; I'm not smart enough yet on C6 to fully grasp the advantage of just moving the higher strings. Having that consistency helps me right now.

(I also have a VKL raising the 6th to F; that's a nice change.)
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Roger R -

When Mike Cass reconfigured each of my steels, he advised me to only raise - and lower - the top C string.

An example of Mike's thinking (and probably Buddy's too) was as follows:

'say that you want to play a C (dominant) 7th chord....a four note chord.....C, E, G, Bb....at the Open position

Strings 7, 6, 5, 4 (with string 4 being raised) would be played to capture the Bb note 'on top.'

If you raised your bottom C string (string 7) that would produce a C# note, which is not within the C Dom 7th chord....
....and the C# note that you played via 7th string raise would also 'clash' with the Bass player producing the C Bass note.

Hope the above example makes sense/helps a little.

Ron

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, Ron.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Ron

You confused me! If I want a C7th at zero, I raise the A (4th) to the Bb note. In your example, raising the C doesn't come into it.

Raising the C to C# gives us an A7th.

Right now, I have both Cs going to C#; I don't doubt that Emmons only raised the 3rd, but why?

Perhaps to enable certain bass notes? I DO know that playing 'At E's' - that contrary ascending/descending line - is pretty tricky with both Cs being raised.

That's just one tune, though.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I know b0b's chart of Buddy E's C6 shows him raising only 3 to C#, but in his Basic C6 course, Buddy recommends raising both 3 & 7 to C#. It's the only knee lever he includes besides the 3rd string B lower.

I notice Herb Steiner's setup for his C6th Essay includes raising both as well.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I had forgotten that, Brint: it's been a while since I had that book.

I know I read a cogent argument for just raising the 3rd but I can't now recall it.

Instinct tells me to raise both Cs; winding the lower one off just so I can play my version of 'At E's' - markedly inferior to the original Smile

- seems ill-advised.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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John Swain · From: Winchester, Va

Roger, I agree with your push back on Ron's example. I find raising and lowering both As-Bb and As-G# and both Cs- C# works best for me. Apparently in the early 90's Buddy raised both Cs to C#, but later didn't. I asked him via the Forum about it and he said raising both would be better, but it didn't make much difference to him because he always played with both feet ! I just saw a video of a 90's seminar where he said he never used his C pedal on E9, though there's so many great recordings of other artists that prove it's worth.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I wound off the 7th lower earlier today but, so far, I can't see a purpose, not with a A-based (zero fret) chord, anyway. It does leave a #9 on string 7 but that sort of accidental is better in the high register.

As I said, it does facilitate the clever contrary-motion run in 'At E's' but that's not enough justification for it, in my opinion.

Just lowering the high C - that's different; that's a useful passing note and makes a nice Cmaj7. If we lowered 7 too, that'd be spoiled.

John:
As for that seminar video, I was there and I easily recall his dismissal of the C pedal. As you say, though, it's been used to fine effect by some great players.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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