Push Pull - What am I missing?

Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

I've never played or owned a push-pull guitar. What am I missing?

I happened onto an episode of TruCountry Music on RFD-TV with Rick Price on steel. Looked like he was playing an Emmons PSG through an Evans amp, and getting some of the best tone I've heard anywhere ever.

Just wondering. Do the vintage Emmons push-pull guitars have something that the modern all-pull guitars can't match tone-wise?

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Short answer, yep
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

John Hyland · From: South Australia

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

It's a confidential secret. You would have to have top security clearance to find out. You could possibly be called to testify before Congress for just asking such a question. Be careful.
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You can observe a lot just by looking

David Dorwart · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Yeah what about push pulls? I’ve always been under the impression that push pills were to be avoided in favor of all pulls. So I’m addition to great tone what are the benefits and downsides? And do the negatives outweigh the positives? I’ve never played one either but have read they can be finicky not returning to pitch, difficult pedaling etc

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

I have never owned one even though the opportunity has been there several times. At pedal steel shows across the country I watched the pros like Hal Rug, John Hughey, Dicky Overby, Herby Wallace, Jimmy Day and yes Buddy Emmons play all brands of steels with awesome tone. My take on this was a great player can make a quality guitar sound like they want. Paul Franklin records with his Franklin, Mike Johnson with his Emmons. They both have monster tone and taste.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Modern all-pull mechanisms are smoother, lighter, and more versatile in terms of timing and tuning options. With the push-pull system raises defeat lowers on the same string so splits are not an option without tying a third pedal to the combination. For these and other reasons most players today are sitting behind all-pull guitars, at least in public.

That being said, the is a sweet, clear, bell-tone quality to a good push-pull guitar that even Emmons has not been able to duplicate in their contemporary all-pull guitars. I keep my push-pull set up at home for practice time while the all-pull is packed up and ready to go to work.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Modern all-pull mechanisms are smoother, lighter, and more versatile in terms of timing and tuning options. With the push-pull system raises defeat lowers on the same string so splits are not an option without tying a third pedal to the combination. For these and other reasons most players today are sitting behind all-pull guitars, at least in public.

That being said, there is a sweet, clear, bell-tone quality to the sound of a good push-pull guitar that even Emmons has not been able to duplicate in their contemporary all-pull guitars. Unless we're recording or making a point of looking real pretty I keep my push-pull set up at home for practice time while the all-pull is packed up and ready to go to work.

Steve Rosko · From: Georgetown, Texas

We’ll, this is gonna be a fun thread Very Happy

I’m no expert, but I’ve been playing an 84 Emmons PP for about 5 years. In my experience:
- that it doesn’t stay in tune is not correct. Once I got the changes all adjusted correctly, I don’t touch them. I tune with the key head only. I’ll check the changes only occasionally. I suspect reports of not staying in tune have more to do with the changes not set up as designed.
- getting the changes working as designed is not for the faint of heart. It’s mechanically somewhat complex and not necessarily intuitive. On the other hand, I did it (with help from forum members). I think you’d need to have some mechanical aptitude. But, once the concept is understood it makes sense.
- does it sound “better” than other brands? I think so, but that’s maybe personal opinion. I played other brands before I got my Emmons.
- why does it sound like it does? Again I’m no expert, but I understand it has a lot to do with how the changer fingers contact the metal changer body.
- are the pedals harder to push than other brands? Yes, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
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84 Emmons D10 PP, MSA D10, Hilton, Little Walter PF89, PF-350 cabs, blueSky, BJS

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I was discouraged fifty years ago by the sole dealer who imported pedal steels. He has ZBs and some p/p Emmons in stock. He didn't disparage the Emmons but I now think that perhaps its more complex mechanics had defeated his staff. I could be wrong, but I came away with a ZB and IU played that brand for twenty years.

I played Sho-Bud for a while then ordered my first Emmons. It was an all-pull LeGrande by then and I've never owned a p/p.

In fact, the only one I ever sat behind and tried to play felt mushy and imprecise. I now believe that it was a poorly-maintained guitar and it was my bad fortune that it left an impression upon me.

I also believe that the trend towards more complicated setups has worked in favour of the all-pull steel. As has been stated here, splits on the p/p take a bit more tweaking than on a modern instrument.

Despite all that, I'm now convinced that a good push-pull in the right hands has the best tone of any steel built. Would I like a new Resound? Absolutely! Would I sacrifice some of my exotic pulls to have one? Of course. (In any case, a new Resound with my 8+9 setup would cost a king's ransom; I'd have to economize somewhere!)
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Here's a quote from Steve Fishell's great new book, "Buddy Emmons - Steel Guitar Icon":

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Donny

I think we can take that as read. I don't believe anyone seriously believes that better gear improves their ability - apart, that is, from the ones that raised their hands at Jeff Newman's seminar! Smile

)

The reality is that acquiring a new guitar can sometimes give a player a lift and, temporarily at least, inspire him.

I was careful to add in my post that the push/pull '...in the right hands' can sound exceptional.

Some days I get fired up and I play for hours: everything sounds good to my ear. On another day? Different story. I last about 20 minutes and go and do something else.

Same guitar, same amp, same player. It's me who's lacking, not my gear.

Didn't Buddy once say (when listening to recordings of his on a p/p and an all-pull Emmons) that he: "....couldn't tell a dime's worth of difference..."?
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com

Jim Cooley · From: The 'Ville, Texas, USA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

In truth, I don't hate any guitar. On the contrary, I think they all have something to offer and have more than once made the statement on the forum that "I've never really heard a bad sounding guitar". Of course, I'm like anyone else. There are sounds that catch my ear, that I sometimes prefer. But that's just me in a particular moment in time.

What bugs me most, though, is when some players try to make others feel guilty, tone-deaf, or amateurish and unschooled if they don't like the same kind of guitar that they play. That's why I think that every time someone makes a statement about the "best" anything, or "There's nothing like...", they should preface it with "To me...", or "In my opinion...". Fact is that if you say you dislike anyone's guitar, or their choice in guitars, you're just alienating them. You're becoming a "gear-snob", and we don't need those kinds of people looking down on aspiring players and making them feel out of place because they don't play a such-and-such or see things the way they do. Variety is the spice of life.

The way I see it, I'm happy that you're happy with whatever brand you choose to play. Don't constantly tell me how great your axe is, play it (and I'll make my own judgements). Buddy Emmons played damn near every brand...except the one I usually play. But I wouldn't hold that against him! Laughing

And I'm sure that if he'd ever heard me play, any criticism he might have had would have probably been directed against me, and not my guitar. I feel we should be revering the players, not whatever brand they choose (or chose) to play. Because without the players, there is no sound, no tone, and no music.

Peace. Neutral

Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

Actually, better equipment did make me a better player. My very first steel guitar was a good one. But when I sat under my second one, (the one I've been playing ever since) I thought "OK. This is the one." Not only did it fit me better, the knee lever and foot pedal travel were much shorter and smoother feeling. This allowed me to hit the correct notes quicker and more precisely. I was having to "wrestle" with the first steel and didn't realize it. The second one improved my playing literally in minutes.

Mitch

Per Berner · From: SkÃ¶vde, Sweden

I agree with previous posters that better equipment does not necessarily make you a better player. My take is that if I get a really good PSG, a really good VP and a reaaly good amp, I know for sure that I'm the only one to blame when I sound bad. I can't say "oh, that's because my equipment is not up to snuff", not even to myself. So I'm forced to improve my (very moderate) skills, instead of focusing on futile upgrades.

That said, I really think my p/p sounds a tiny bit better than my all-pull steels (which are easier to maintain and more ergonomical).

And then there is the joy of using top quality products, be it guitars or tools or shoes or cameras or cars or whatever.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

The P Pulls are really nice and many of them have a stand out tone. As the late great Bobbee Seymour said , Push Pulls are great, but not all of them ! Very Happy

I owned an 81 and played it regularly for a few years, it had a very identifiable tone to me. Today I only own a Legrande II - ALL PULL- it also has identifiable tone to me . When I didn't play well, it still showed with either of them ! LOL Shocked

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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Here I am, talking about push/pulls yet, as I said, I've never owned one. The only one I played disappointed me; I enjoy precise and definite pedal-stops and that guitar felt mushy.

I only mention that because it coloured my opinion of them but, as I'm somewhere near the bottom of the heap when it comes to steel-players, my opinion is of relative unimportance.

I agree with the view that some players on here can occasionally cast aspersions on those who 'don't play such-and-such instrument' as they're 'superior'. There's the veiled implication that the 'offender' hasn't got the ears to hear the difference.

But I've said this on the Forum before: while Emmons is the player I admired the most, he sometimes got a tone that sounded harsh to my ears. The Black Album is a touch like that for me, despite its virtuoso performances. His sound on the much-vaunted Roger Miller album is way too shrill for my taste, again despite the sheer quality of his inventive musicianship. The same with 'Minors Aloud'. I've come to believe that that is one of the hallmarks of the p/p; there's no doubt that they cut through any mix!

I think that that 'bite' was a deliberate aim when he designed the guitar in the early-'60s; a sound that would cut its way to the front in any situation.

The most pleasing tone he ever got (for me, I must stress) was on his Christmas album.

I'm a beginner by comparison (that goes without saying) but a bright, sharp tone frightens me a little. I feel it exposes flaws in my playing. I've ditched amplifiers for that reason.

However, I still want to own a p/p! I am where I am as a player, but they've a legendary place in our world and I feel I'm missing something, even as happy as I am with my now-23 year-old LeGrande.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Here is a discussion from the past:

https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013266.html

Here is another:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1587934&sid=8f7c3c3e0c35540efe77ec5dca9aa51a

And there is this, really long discussion:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=244225&sid=057708aa22934831af2b1dee858ddf3d

~Lee

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I had/have both. I had a (bought new) 71 D-10 PP, Black mica. I played it through a Twin Reverb. It sounded great, until I got a new Franklin in late 82. The Franklin with L705's and the easier pedal/knee levers did in the Emmons.

I sounded "like me" on both guitars. Same, I sound like me on my current GFI.
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GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit

Brian Gattis · From: Georgia, USA

Try one and see for yourself. It took me years to take the plunge ,and I sure am glad I did.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

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