The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic MSA return spring mounting
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  MSA return spring mounting
Bill Johnson

 

From:
Ocean Shores, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 18 Nov 2022 10:01 pm    
Reply with quote

I have an 82 or 83 Vintage XL Supersustain II.
My questions are about the return spring mounting.
The clip that secures the one end of the spring to the tailpiece is something I haven't had on my older Classics.
The springs are the same gauge wire and the same length as on the classic. The clip adds another 1/2" to the length of the spring.
It's obvious that with the clip installed, there won't be as much tension for the return. Is it meant to have a shorter spring?
I haven't been able to check which is a better set up because I got the guitar in pieces and am still working on it.
Are these clips something that MSA came out with in later years? or did a previous owner think he was doing something magical?
If the clips are factory, has anyone removed them and still gotten good results?
Any thoughts or comments are welcome because at this point, I don't have a clue.

Thanks, Bill


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Bobby D. Jones

 

From:
West Virginia, USA
Post  Posted 19 Nov 2022 6:50 pm    
Reply with quote

The booby prize of the day. Looks like someone went to a hardware store bought new springs, They was to short and added that clip to make them longer to work. !!! Maybe.

I have owned 2 MSA Classics, When the springs have to be stretched to get the pulls right, The Springs are ugly. But that is what it takes to set up the pulls proper. But some think they need replaced, So they are pretty.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Bill Johnson

 

From:
Ocean Shores, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 20 Nov 2022 9:11 am    
Reply with quote

Bobby, I totally agree. Booby prize for sure.
The puzzle to what this guy was thinking seems to be growing.
It is evident they were trying to adjust something with the pulls or tension.
Since I got the guitar unplayable, my first order of business was to start working on refinishing the cabinet, therefore not checking the hardware to closely.
I am now in the middle of the lacquer applications and letting it set for a while before sanding.
After inspecting the changer to see what kind of work will be needed, I noticed that someone had tried to tighten the rivets
of the pull scissors using a center punch instead of a proper rivet tool. (ask me how I know this) The results are all of the
rivets are split and flattened on the rollover, causing over half of the fingers to bind. Looks like I will be rebuilding those now.
All of the pedal return springs are missing and the guide slots on the tailpiece have been milled out.
At this point, all I can imagine is that this guy was trying to lessen the pedal and lever tension while still keeping the return springs looking pretty.
I am sure more will come up as I get into it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Bobby D. Jones

 

From:
West Virginia, USA
Post  Posted 23 Nov 2022 3:51 pm    
Reply with quote

Sounds like someone may have got in over their head, And done some things, That should have been done a different way, For the good of the guitar.
Good Luck getting this old war horse back sounding pretty.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Jim Pitman

 

From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
Post  Posted 30 Nov 2022 2:48 am    
Reply with quote

Lower return springs counter string tension. If after you install them and you find the lower scissor is lifting off the stop statically, you'll need more tension. Turn the screw CW?
IMO, a longer spring will provide more linear tension. You may want to go back to the original design length and omit that piece.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Bill Johnson

 

From:
Ocean Shores, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 30 Nov 2022 11:21 am    
Reply with quote

I hear you Jim, it looks like I will be doing some assembling, fitting and testing to achieve the desired results.
I have finished the rebuild of the changer. This entailed cleaning, sanding and polishing all the hardware,
along with installing new rivets on the finger scissors and new spacer washers on the changer shaft.
With a little bit of "Tri Flow" lube to complete, the changer function is as smooth as silk now.
To note: the rivets were so worn, the lower fingers cut deep grooves on the underside of the stop bar. (I have made a new one to replace)
This guitar is the poster child for the need of occasional lubrication.
Back to working on the cabinet for now.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Bobby D. Jones

 

From:
West Virginia, USA
Post  Posted 30 Nov 2022 4:52 pm    
Reply with quote

From the picture, The Screw is just a mounting screw 90 degrees to the pull force direction, And would not adjust the tension of the spring.
Did they make the distance from the screw hole to the spring hook in different lengths to adjust spring tension?

An original set of springs designed for the MSA Classic would make setting the guitar up easier, Or
PSGParts did make a replacement set of springs with Screw Tension adjustment. May be something to consider in the rebuild.
Good Luck in the way you choose.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Bill Johnson

 

From:
Ocean Shores, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 30 Nov 2022 7:09 pm    
Reply with quote

Bobby, your right, there is no adjustment for spring tension on these.
All of the spring hooks are made identical in length. The springs are the same ones that are on a "Classic".
I am still wondering if MSA made these spring hooks or if a previous owner made them or purchased them somewhere.
The original "Classic" springs always seemed a little overkill to me so, the spring hook was a way to lower tension
without stretching the spring and making it appear unsightly.
Unfortunately, PSG parts are out of stock on the adjustable spring kits. I definitely would have ordered one.
So, I will be trying the setup both ways, with and without the hooks to see what works best, and if need be,
I will just stretch the springs. I am not bothered by the appearance of a stretched spring; you do what you gotta do!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

John Hyland

 

From:
South Australia
Post  Posted 1 Dec 2022 12:36 pm    
Reply with quote

Just to muddy the waters.

My understanding is a shorter spring requires less stretch to reach the desired tension to hold the lower finger than a longer one of the same style. That sounds good, but… it also means any lowering action will encounter more resistance than a longer spring. That is - be stiffer. That is because the relative length of movement compared to the spring length is greater for a short spring.

Of course the lowering action should feel similar to a raise action and the length of your string might be just right.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  
Please review our Forum Rules and Policies
Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction, and accessories
www.SteelGuitarShopper.com
BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for Band-in-a-Box
by Jim Baron
The Steel Guitar Forum
148 S. Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Click Here to Send a Donation

Email SteelGuitarForum@gmail.com for technical support.