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Topic: Having pitch issues with OTHER strings when pushing pedals |
Matthew Kresge
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2022 7:42 pm |
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I've noticed recently that when I push down my A pedal while playing an open 3 or 6 string, it drops the pitch of the both strings considerably. The reverse happens when I push the B pedal (strings 5 and 10 flatten considerably). This is obviously making it difficult, if not impossible, to sound like I'm in tune and using accurate intonation. Any ideas as to what could be the source of the problem?
I'm a new player (6 months) and have made subtle adjustments to the nylon tuning mechanism as I've tried to find my happy place with pedal tension. Is it possible I screwed something up in doing so that is flattening the pitch of strings associated with pedals not being used? |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 14 Nov 2022 7:48 pm
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You are experiencing "Cabinet Drop". It is better or worse depending on the steel. Can you hear it while you play ?
If you temper tune your steel it can help mitigate tuning issues.
Feel free to get in touch and we can do a facetime /skype call. I can maybe help you know what you are dealing with.
_________________
Bob |
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Matthew Kresge
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2022 8:13 pm
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| Ok, so there is a name for it. I'm gonna search the forum to read up on it. I'll PM you about the possibility of Skyping. REALLY appreciate it! |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2022 9:36 pm
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Hi Matt,
Bob is right in that it could be cabinet drop. However, there are other posibilities. You mentioned "subtle adjustments". Some things to concider:
Is your unit new or used?
Has this always happened, or did it just start?
If you unit is used, parts may be loose or need oiling.
If it just started, what was done before it started?
Anyway, if you are mechanically inclined, always try the simple stuff first. Luck on your repair....Pat. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 1:43 am
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What Steel are you playing and how old is it ? 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 10:04 am
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One tip:
When you press the pedals, the harder you press down after the pedals hit their stops, the more cabinet drop you will experience! (Make a mental note of that, and use just enough foot pressure to reach the stop point.) |
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Matthew Kresge
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 10:20 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| What Steel are you playing and how old is it ? |
It's a brand new Justice S10 Emmons setup. I got it 6 months ago.
To answer the question as to whether it's been happening for a while or if it just started, it's hard to say. I'm a newb who's only been playing for 6 months so I've had my struggles with accurate intonation since this is the first fretless guitar I've ever played. At first I assumed a lot of the 'out of tune' playing I was hearing was due to my lack of proper intonation, but the more I focused on it and investigated it, the more I started to realize it wasn't my intonation but the strings being slightly out of pitch (due to what I now know is cabinet drop). |
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John Drury
From:
Gallatin, Tn USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 10:26 am Re: Having pitch issues with OTHER strings when...
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| Matthew Kresge wrote: |
I've noticed recently that when I push down my A pedal while playing an open 3 or 6 string, it drops the pitch of the both strings considerably. The reverse happens when I push the B pedal (strings 5 and 10 flatten considerably). This is obviously making it difficult, if not impossible, to sound like I'm in tune and using accurate intonation. Any ideas as to what could be the source of the problem?
I'm a new player (6 months) and have made subtle adjustments to the nylon tuning mechanism as I've tried to find my happy place with pedal tension. Is it possible I screwed something up in doing so that is flattening the pitch of strings associated with pedals not being used? |
What Bob Hoffnar said. And they ALL have it! Sounds as though your situation was worsened by tweaking.
_________________
John Drury
NTSGA #3
"Practice cures most tone issues" ~ John Suhr |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 1:36 pm
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Matthew, there is a way to counteract the effect of cabinet drop using your tuning procedure.
Question: how are you now tuning your guitar? Are you tuning it straight up to zero using a tuner box? Are you tuning it by ear? Are you tuning using a canned tuning chart or "sweetener" as used in a Peterson tuner?
Each of those options interface with cabinet drop in different ways.
If you would like, I can make you a custom tuning chart that takes into account that particular guitar's level of cab drop (and cabinet raise, when engaging a knee lever lowering strings). Just send me a private message. I'll collect a few readings from your guitar and send you a chart that "tunes out" most (if not all) of that cabinet drop. If you would like, you can also specify your ideal target intervals for major thirds and fifths and I can incorporate that into your chart. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 1:54 pm
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Along the lines of what Tucker just said, I'm going to make a suggestion, one that will probably draw some flak. 
You want your chords to be in tune, because that's where you normally notice things being "out". So, tune ONE STRING with your tuner, and then tune all the rest of the strings and changes to that one string...using just your ears  Tune so it sounds good to your ears, and not so it "looks good" on your tuner.
I promise, you'll be happier.  |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 3:13 pm
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I’ll say again, cabinet drop wasn’t a problem until electronic tuners came out. Buddy, John, Weldon, Hal and on and on never worried about cabinet drop back in the 60’s and I’m sure it was there just like people say it is today.
Just learn to play in tune. You may or may not need to tune strings different than by the book. Experiment with tuning until you find something that works for you.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 4:27 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
I’ll say again, cabinet drop wasn’t a problem until electronic tuners came out. Buddy, John, Weldon, Hal and on and on never worried about cabinet drop back in the 60’s and I’m sure it was there just like people say it is today.
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Correct. And that's because when tuning by ear, you automatically (and unconsciously) make the adjustment by tuning the current note to match certain strings that are already slightly detuned by pedal or knee action. Therefore, the interval ends up being in tune when cab drop is in play -- because it was in play when you were tuning up.
But some people aren't good at ear-tuning, or need to tune on a noisy stage (or silently). Some don't want to use Just Intonation, and their system is hard to get to by ear. For those folks who need a tuner box for all strings, the adjustment to account for the detuned strings still needs to happen, but it has to be handled directly and mindfully. When tuning by ear, you're at an advantage because you're sounding two-note intervals so you have the opportunity to match your pitch to that other slightly-detuned note. But when using a tuner, the procedure has you tuning one string at a time -- without regard for other strings, ones that will later be detuned a little because some random pedal or lever is pushed. Your note may sound fine alone, but when you play a two-note interval that includes a slightly-detuned string, the interval is out a little.
A lot of people don't know how to adjust for cab drop -- or use a box to get to any system other than "straight up" to zero -- so they use a chart written by someone else, like the Newman chart.
https://steelguitarforum.com/b0b/jefftune.html
Those canned charts and Peterson sweetened tunings make the cab drop 'fix' by making an assumption about how much detuning will be present and build that into the system. Unfortunately, if your guitar has significantly more or less detuning than the one-size-fits-all that the canned chart assumed, you'll be a bit out of tune in certain positions (especially the pedals-down "A" chord). But those charts work well enough for most players and are a vast improvement over tuning 'straight up,' IMHO, because they usually lean heavily towards Just Intonation (the pure, sweet intervals you get when tuning 'by ear'). Getting to something close to Just Intonation is the main reason to use a chart like that -- meanwhile, the "tuning out cab drop" aspect is just a small side benefit.
I think players can have the best of all worlds and make their own charts, one customized for each guitar they own, that is based on the system or target intervals they prefer (Equal Temperament? Just Intonation? Some point in between? It's a whole other thread on the pros and cons of each system). It's not really very difficult if you know about five things. I learned how to do it back in the day from Larry Bell's website -- and then took those principles and wrote a little calculator on the computer to spit out a custom chart to "tune out" cabinet drop while getting as many common major and minor chord positions in tune to whatever target intervals I had selected. Works great. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 9:24 am
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Buddy, Hal, Weldon, etc. may not have worried about cabinet drop, but I bet they took their sweet time tuning. I’ve heard that audiences would applaud after hearing Buddy tune up.
Electronic tuners solved one of the biggest problems musicians had on stage - getting and staying in tune without annoying the audience or other band members. But they make solutions to other issues, like cabinet drop, much easier to figure out.
A friend of mine taught me to tune the E strings (E9 neck) straight up with Pedal B down. From there you can tune just about everything by ear if you want, and then check your readings on the tuner and write them down. This takes the drop from your own guitar into account - not Jeff Newman’s, or Buddy’s, which is the point Tucker Jackson was making in his excellent post.
I also think tuning issues get complicated by not playing the guitar before flubbing around with tuning keys and hex nuts. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 9:55 am
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Exactly Fred. It's impossible to diagnose a detuning problem if you don't know what's causing the problem. With the tuner, you can see exactly what's happening and with which strings.
I don't subscribe to the notion that detuning issues only appeared with the advent of electronic tuners either.
Detuning is common to just about every pedal steel guitar in varying amounts. A few cents here and there that are inaudible shouldn't be a problem.
However, I've seen and played guitars where the issue is so apparent you can hear a string drop with a pedal use.
I can usually cure most detuning problems with the use of a compensator rod, but this doesn't work perfectly with some guitars so I'm told  .
Personally, I use an electronic tuner to rough in my base tuning, then use the exact method as described by Fred. Ultimately the tuner will show almost everything as straight up with just a few cents relief on the 3rds.
Then you must be in tune with the rest of your environment. |
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Gil James
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 5:13 pm
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"Then you must be in tune with the rest of your environment."
Truer words have never been spoken, Jerry. Playing alone is one thing, but playing with other instruments can change things. Matthew, If by chance you play with a piano in a group, just tune straight up, and save yourself a lot of headaches. Just my 2 cents.
Lots of good info in these posts. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 11:31 pm
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I have a different take on tuning with a piano, particularly an electronic piano, which is tuned straight up. The bane is the third note of your chords. So if you'll tune a little sharp open, say 442 or 443, that will mean you are in effect, splitting the difference and getting your thirds closer to the piano's thirds. Most ears will accept a little sharp quicker than flat for your other notes. In the end, you have to play the thing with your ears anyway. Most experienced players have thru trial and error evolved their own way of dealing with this.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 11:37 pm
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| Gil James wrote: |
"Then you must be in tune with the rest of your environment."
Truer words have never been spoken, Jerry. Playing alone is one thing, but playing with other instruments can change things. Matthew, If by chance you play with a piano in a group, just tune straight up, and save yourself a lot of headaches. Just my 2 cents.
Lots of good info in these posts. |
Gil, I’ve tried straight up 440 tuning and it just doesn’t fit my ear but seems when I tune every string about 2 cents sharp with key board, it sounds better. As Clyde pointed out, sharp sounds much better than flat. I do still temper though.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Gil James
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2022 2:39 pm
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| I've tried all the peterson sweeteners,etc.,with no satisfaction in my current situation. Playing with 2 keyboardists,piano and organ,has been challenging. Straight up 440 is what Ive needed to please 3 sets of ears. A little tweeking of 3 and 6 strings,and I am good to go. What little cabinet drop I have,I make up with the bar I suppose,because it's not noticed.I will experiment with straight 442 and see what's there. Thanks! |
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Michael Hill
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2022 12:16 pm
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I've had good luck adding compensators.
Another option is raise helper springs. They can lessen cabinet drop. |
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