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Topic: Pull release changer setup limitations? |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2022 6:12 am |
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So I am finally getting to a point where I am thinking about adding some pedals to my guitar. I have been playing it as just a console till now. I am trying to wrap my head around this and come up with a copedant that will work for me. I found this video that has explained something crucial for anyone trying to setup a pull-release with more than a single raise or single lower on a string. I have read several times that pull release changers are only capable of a single raise or lower per string, this however does not seem to be true. This guy has set up his E string to produce 2 raises and 1 lower it appears. E-F lever, E-F# C pedal and E to D# lever. Thats 4 notes on 1 string. Am I wrong?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT6yEuZ1rEc
I have several copedants I am interested in (It is an 8 string guitar). One will require raising and lowering every string. Another E9/B6 copedant is what I am leaning towards, but will require getting 4 notes on either E string. I have spent enough days scratching my head about this, I figure it is time to dive in and figure it all out! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 16 Oct 2022 10:17 am
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No limitations with pull release except no split notes, and the requirement for slack on the raise rods for strings with lowers. I'm not sure where you read that pull-release changers can't do both raise and lower on the same string, in general they are capable of as many raises and lowers as you can find room for. Some of the simpler student model guitars like the '70s Mavericks were originally set up to allow only a single raise or lower but even those can be modded for both. What make model of guitar do you have? Can you post some pics? More detailed info will allow folks to offer more useful advice if that's what you're after.
There are a number of different ways pull release guitars were set up through the years. Different guitars have different inherent constraints and opportunities based on their design. In many or most cases the only significant constraint is the range of motion (pitch) that the finger will allow between the highest and lowest possible note.
On early P-R guitars the highest note was usually established by pulling the finger forward and tight against the body cutout, the lowest desired note was then set with a stop screw in the changer or end plate. For example, typical E9 string 4 that range is from F# (body stop) to D# (tuned with end plate stop screw). Any string with a lower requires a return spring to counter the string tension and hold the finger in the neutral position. When that lever is activated the string tension is "released". On a string with a lower but no raises that would be the open note, with the finger pulled tight against the body as noted above. If a string has both a raise and lower there are usually two (or more) rods on the finger. There will be a spring that holds the finger against a tunable stop, that stop determines the pitch of the open note. It is common on older guitars for this to be accomplished with a spring attached directly to a knee lever or cross shaft, the lowering rod holds the string in the open position until is released by activating the lever. Some guitars, like old Marlens, had a common lower return spring on a pull rod that allowed multiple lowers on the same string more easily.
Many modern P-R guitars like the Stage One and new Jackson Maverick HD don't rely on the body stop and do all the tuning with rods and tuning nuts at the end plate. Emmons PP guitars are essentially pull release too, with a much more elegant stop and return spring system that is contained completely within the changer. The "release" function is activated by a push.
Lots of ways to do this.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2022 4:48 am
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Thank you for clearing this up! Great response, very helpful. It is a homemade guitar and not a traditional design by a long shot. I will post some pictures when I get a chance. The main design constraint is that it is acoustic with an internal soundboard, so nothing can be screwed to the underside. It is a bit deeper than a traditional electric steel so that puts the holes in the changer further from the axle, not sure how this might effect it if at all. Here is a post describing how I got here. the guitar looks a bit different now, I had to make a new fretboard and secure the roller nut better as the string tension was pushing it forward.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=384479&highlight= |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 17 Oct 2022 9:48 am
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That's really cool. There are others who've built similar instruments that you could use for inspiration on the mechanics - Paul Franklin Sr, Jimmie Hudson, Thiel Hatt. It looks like it may be a bit of a challenge fitting the necessary mechanics for pedals and levers on there but there's always a way. Can you still use the inside of the box to route stuff through? It looks like the front and back are solid 3/4"+ material so you could potentially mount everything to those surfaces. Jacketed cables might be another and perhaps easier option. If you used bicycle-style cables the pedals and levers could be independent and all the mechanical stuff could be isolated to the changer. You've got some extra room on that end beyond the normal range of where your right leg would be while playing, so stuff could hang below a little there and not interfere.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2022 5:56 am
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| Quote: |
| There are others who've built similar instruments that you could use for inspiration on the mechanics - Paul Franklin Sr, Jimmie Hudson, Thiel Hatt. It looks like it may be a bit of a challenge fitting the necessary mechanics for pedals and levers on there but there's always a way. Can you still use the inside of the box to route stuff through? |
Before I started building, I searched the internet for other acoustic pedal steel guitars and found all those examples. I was surprised how few there are. Jimmie Hudsons guitars are really inspiring cause they are just so basic and appear to have everything you need and nothing else.
The back is recessed to allow my knees to fit under the guitar. I plan on mounting the bell crank axles to the inner sides using angle for the stops to hit against. I have a plan from Redneck Guitars where he uses 3/8" shaft collars with extended bolts as bell cranks which seems like an easy solution. In the video I posted he just drilled and tapped a place for eyebolts to use as bell cranks, but I like the idea of using stops better. I played with the idea of bike cables, but ultimately I feel pull rods will be easier. It is going to be a lot of trial and error obviously, but the basic mechanisms do not appear very complicated. I will post some more pictures when I get time to work on it. Thanks for your interest! This may be the worlds first cigar box pedal steel guitar as I will be using a paint can lid for a resonator  |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2022 3:01 pm
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Okay am I getting this right? On a note with multiple raises and a lower, would the lowest note be the furthest from the changer axle? Is this correct??
On a E string with a lower D#, and 2 raises F and F#-
1 the furthest rod from the axle would hold the E with spring tension then lower to D# relieving the spring
2 the next rod up would be the raise to F
3 the next (closest to the axle) would be the raise to F#
Sorry if this is confusing, this is kind of hard to explain. I realize that the raises would have to allow clearance for the E to lower to D# if my thinking is correct
The new copedant I am working out actually does away with the C pedal change so no need for the double raise on the upper E note. I am considering a way to rig the C pedal to lower the G#s to G to give a nice Em9 I can't figure out if a double lower would work?? I would also like to lower my lower E to D as there is no D in the universal tuning.
here is the copedant low to high E-G#(A)-B(C#)-E(F,D#,D?)-F#-G#(A)-B(C#)-E(F,D#)
This copedant with A and B pedals down is a full A6 and with the RKR engaged it is a full B6. If I could also lower the middle E to D it would be the Bud Isaacs tuning basically. I like Bud Isaacs! This is the lower 8 strings of the universal tuning from Larry Bell, an Eadd9 tuning with nothing engaged. http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2022 6:17 am
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Before this post gets lost in the dead zone, maybe someone can answer this question. Is a double lower possible on a pull release changer? I am hoping it is, but cannot grasp how it would be set up. I would really like to be able to lower my middle E to D, and D#.
I get a double raise no problem, but a double lower seems much trickier. I may have to go back to the drawing board on my copedant if this is not possible. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 24 Oct 2022 5:16 pm
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| ...Is a double lower possible on a pull release changer? I am hoping it is, but cannot grasp how it would be set up... |
Yes, definitely doable. There are different ways to accomplish this but in most cases you would have both lowers on the same rod. For the example you gave, the lowest possible note, D, would be tuned with a firm stop screw at the end plate. The intermediate D# would be tuned with a separate stop of some sort on the rod at the lever, either a "half-tone tuner" like on an Emmons PP, or just with a stop screw on that lever.
The old P-R Marlens had a good and logical (to me) system for this, the lowering rods were on top, against to the underside on the body and extended to the other end of the guitar. The lower return springs were attached there and pulled the rods tight against a stop bracket there with a stop collar on the rod (to hold the open note). They used butterfly bell cranks like on a PP that would push another stop collar on those rods to "release" and lower the pitch. On the lever that drops to D it would release the finger all the way to the screw stop at end plate, the D# would be fine-tuned by an intermediate adjustable stop on the lever itself. Do a forum search or Google image search for Marlen pull release and you should find plenty of images to illustrate how this works. There are lots of ways you could refine this to be more user friendly, with nylon tuners at the end plate for raises and open notes, etc.
This also relates to your last post, it's not that critical which order the rods are attached to the changer as long as you get the correct leverage combinations to do the desired job. Often it's more important to route the rods so that they don't interfere with one another. On a Marlen the lowers are closest to the changer axle. I also saw your other thread where you were asking about 3/32" rods - keep in mind that rods that small aren't particularly rigid. With thin rods you need to have very straight pulls for the most part to maintain tuning stability on any pull that doesn't terminate at a firm stop in the changer (the highest and lowest notes only). This includes the lowering rods that tune the open notes on any string with both a raise and lower (the lowering rods on the Marlen example above). The bent rods you'll often see in old P-R guitars were 1/8" for the most part, much more dimensionally stable when bent vs. 3/32" relative to the amount of leverage and tension you're dealing with on a PSG
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 25 Oct 2022 6:40 am
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| Quote: |
| The intermediate D# would be tuned with a separate stop of some sort on the rod at the lever, either a "half-tone tuner" like on an Emmons PP, or just with a stop screw on that lever. |
OK this is the part I need to understand. I found this thread and others which talks about the same stuff. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=250642 I am glad I am not the only one struggling to understand this.
I cannot seem to find a diagram of a half-tone tuner or a picture of one installed. I did find one for sale https://www.ebay.com/itm/274497648835 not that this picture helps much. I also haven't found any threads talking specifically about setting up a double lower, since the basic E9 doesn't need one. This is one of those things that if it were right in front of me it would be easy to understand, but very difficult otherwise, like describing an elephant to a blind man. Is a half tone tuner a soft stop? Thanks again for trying to help! The D-D# is the linchpin of my copedant. |
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Nicholas Thomas
From:
St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada
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Posted 25 Oct 2022 2:24 pm
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I tune the 2nd string to C# then raise to D# with RKR and planning on to add another knee lever (LKL O) to raise the C# to D, it was the way most of the greats did it to work around the double lower on PR or PP guitars.
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Guitar Built by me! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 25 Oct 2022 11:39 pm
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Tim, there are a lot of different ways to accomplish what you're after, with varying degrees of complexity and capability. The diagram below illustrates a simple way you could set it up on your guitar. Hopefully this will help you better understand the general concept. This is by no means the only way to do this, but it's one that would be relatively easy to set up and fabricate the necessary parts for. You'd have to adapt this to work with your guitar's unique construction. The simplest arrangement would have the lowers on the right-moving knee levers (LKR, RKR) so you wouldn't need any reversing mechanisms. If you need to have mixed raises and lowers on the same knee it adds more complexity to the setup.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2022 8:39 am
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| Okay, the half tone tuner is threaded through the insert and there is a spring between the bolt head and the bell crank. Which tunes the note when turned. The insert is round so it self adjusts as the bell crank moves. The bolt is drilled out so the rod passes through. The stop collar would be on the other side for a raise. I think I get it. I think I also understand the butterfly design of the Marlen bell cranks. I may have to redesign mine to make this work. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Oct 2022 9:49 am
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you've got it  . The round inserts are called "swivels". On guitars with flat bell cranks like a PP or early '70s Sho-Bud the diameter is such that it extends beyond the plane of the bell crank end so that the rod collar only ever contacts the swivel (or half tone tuner screw). On the Marlen the collars just contact the face of the bell crank.
FWIW, you could setup most all the other changes more like a modern P-R, with tuning nuts accessible through an end plate window for easier tuning. There really are a lot of different ways to accomplish the same goals with P-R, the double lower is the most limiting in that both levers have to interact with the same return spring.
Also worth noting that this is not the case for a half-stop D#>D>C# as is common on E9 string 2, which is fairly simple to accomplish on most any guitar. It's the combination of of two different levers and two different lowered notes in your case that creates the (minor) constraint.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2022 6:06 pm
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Maybe I'm imagining this but it seems to me the pull release is compromised on the E that is both raised and lowered. It takes a lot of spring return force to minimize hysteresis which makes for excessive lowering effort compared to an all pull changer.
To summarize, actuation force trades off with hysteresis is what I noticed fooling around with a pull release for a day or two. |
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