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Author Topic:  relative minor explained, and modes
Daniel Bailey

 

From:
Massachusetts, USA
Post  Posted 8 Sep 2022 9:39 am    
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Fred,

Thanks for the pointers. I'm grateful for any and all suggestions.

Where can I find the forum's beginner's page? I don't see it listed under "Forum Index" or "Forum Section" or by a google search. Perhaps I'm missing it.

From what I can tell, John Sohn's Steel Sidekick is only available for iPhone. Has anyone tried an app from Mike Hill called Pedal Steel on https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mhill.pedalSteel&hl=en_US&gl=US Android?

Finally, I did find Joe Wright's page. If anyone has his contact info, I'd be happy to take it. The site isn't working. Visit https://www.pedalsteel.com/joe/Members/pro/myap.html and try to add the PDF to your cart for purchase.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to make suggestions!
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 8 Sep 2022 10:27 am    
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Beginners-
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=329975

Joe-
https://www.pedalsteel.com/prt/members/books.html

I hadn’t realized all of Joe Wright’s “analog” material is now available for free download in pdf, plus some free video stuff too. That is a fantastic contribution to the community.

I also had not checked out the Beginners Page in a few years. It is extremely well-organized now, including the video section. Hat’s off to moderator Dave Dube for doing such a great job on it.

Yes, SteelSidekick is iOS only, unfortunately for droiders and PCers.
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Daniel Bailey

 

From:
Massachusetts, USA
Post  Posted 29 Sep 2022 6:21 am    
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Chris Brooks wrote:
When I ordered my Carter Extended E9, I had them put a 0-pedal to the left of ABC which flats the G#.

That way I can get a minor on the same fret as a major and don't have to think, "Hmmm, OK, two frets down . . . mash the AB pedals"


So just to make sure...you recommend flatting both G#? Is that the same as the standard Franklin change?

I'm guessing Paul Franklin's online course assumes that pedal is there?
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 29 Sep 2022 6:56 am    
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Dennis-

No.
The Franklin change lowers both the B strings a whole step to A, and the G# on string 6 to F#.

It sounds to me like Chris put a “0” pedal in for lowering G# a half step to G.
If it was me, I would want both G# strings lowered to G.
Lowering string 6 to F# while leaving 3 at G#, like the Franklin change does, is not a problem. But having G on 6 and G# on 3? Problem.

I don’t believe the Franklin Method assumes the presence (or need) of the Franklin change, or of lowering G# strings at all.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 29 Sep 2022 3:45 pm    
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Any scale can be looked at starting at different degrees of the scale.
In other words, any note in the scale can be "I" (one)... and so the scale takes a different color, except for the 2 symmetrical scales; Augmented and Diminished... because of their constant equidistant interval, the "color" will not change.

The "Relative minor" is referred as the arpeggio resulting of the 6th degree of ANY Major chord. In CM, A is the 6th degree. You start at A, the next note is C, which is only a minor third above A and become the m3rd, and then find E a Major third further up becoming the 5th and then G another minor third up as the b7th and finally, full circle back up 2nd to A

Tab:

MAJOR:  1  |  _  |  3  _  |  5  |  6  |  _  1  |  _  |  3  _  |  5  |  6 
minor:                             1  |  _  3m _  _  |  5  |  _  b7  _ 1


Likewise a minor chord has it's relative minor (and that's important to understand the HalfDiminished (minor b5) as the ii-b5 in a 2,5,1minor with a minor target (the i-minor):


Tab:

minor:  1  |  _ 3m  _  _  |  5  |  _  b7  _  1  |  _  b3 _  _  |  5  |  _  b7 
minor ø:                           1   |  _  3m _  _  b5 _  |  _  b7 _  1


Evidently, the 1 of the relative minø has to line up at the 6th degree the minor it's based off as well as the relative minor did off the Major.
It would take a minor6th (which was more common in the past) to generate a relative minø at it's 6th degree.

So, just as a Major6th is a minor7th or a Major7th a rootless minor9th starting at the Major's 6th degree, a minor6th is also a half-diminished starting at the minor's 6th degree. Hence "the minor's relative minor".
Looking at it backwards, you could agree with Telonious Monks "just a minor with the 6th in the bass"



IF we'd move our "ruler" further around and set a new root at the non-present 4th degree, a minor6th has also the same notes as a root-less Dominant79th chord:
Looking at our minor-6th as a ii-m6th is the same as VDom7/9th.
The reason Barry Harris said "see, I don't play the 2minor... I just play the V... because it's the same!".
Evidently, we can spin this further and say 2minor is Dorian and thus IM7 and it all becomes all the "same"... and that seems simple but it's also where we all get lost again.


So any Dominant chord or minor 6th position can also be a Half Diminished chord, depending where one "sees" the root.


A hint for C6th players (with an F on the 9th string):
The 9th string F creates the root to the M7/9th chord using all higher from the C6th/Am7.
Most will see the open tuning "only" as C6th, Am7th and FM7/9th.
BUT, F being a Major chord, it too has a relative minor... D-minor. Just that since there is no 6th degree ("D") in the F-chord, there is no root on the bottom for the resulting D-minor7/9th (the 9th degree comes from the M7th degree of the underlining FM79th)... BUT, you got a D on top (1st string)!

... J-D.
_________________
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A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 30 Sep 2022 8:35 am    
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What Barry Harris and Monk said. Thanks for those quotes, JD.
Also Paul Franklin, who says he really only thinks in terms of minor and major.

Obviously you can go down a serious rabbit hole in a discussion on modes and scales and chord synonyms.

But C-E-G is still C major, no matter what mode or key or scale it’s in. Context is everything of course (“the bass player is playing A!” “No wait, the bass player is playing G sharp!” “Now he’s playing D!”), but the starting point is a basic musical truth.
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Thom Gustafson

 

From:
Mount Vernon, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2022 11:12 am    
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Since the days of figured bass chord changes are just as dependent on the bass note as they are on the chord. A C chord works fine against any chord that has a C chord in it, but the sound of C or the inversions C/E or C/G are very different. When used as a dominant substitute in the key of G C/D sounds very different. In a song like Josie by Steely Dan C/F sounds very different. If you are playing with a bass player or keyboard player and they play the proper bass note at the time of the change a C chord will work in all these situations. If instead you are also responsible for the bass line the chord will not sound "right" unless you play it against the proper bass note. If you want to emphasize the sound of a chord with a non chord tone as the bass you might want to add it to your voicing. Many songs are built on a bass line such as C-G/B-Am-C/G. Obviously not every bass note calls for a chord change, but the bass note at the time of a chord change is very important.
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Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2022 12:47 pm    
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An important thing to consider with minor keys is that very rarely does the scale used reflect that relative major scale. There is no dominant V chord in a natural minor that leads to the minor tonic, hence the invention of the harmonic and melodic minor scales, which provide the leading tone to resolve to the tonic. For example, in an A minor scale (natural minor), the 7th degree is G. In harmonic minor or melodic minor, that 7th degree is G#, giving you the V7 or E7.
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Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2022 12:51 pm    
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Fred Treece wrote:


But C-E-G is still C major, no matter what mode or key or scale it’s in. Context is everything of course (“the bass player is playing A!” “No wait, the bass player is playing G sharp!” “Now he’s playing D!”), but the starting point is a basic musical truth.


While triads never tell the whole story in terms of function (that’s where the 7th comes in), I am all about understanding the role of triads in extended chords. Put an F# triad on top of a C root, and I know we are talking about C7b5b9. Triads are like a rainbow of sound in terms of color.
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Daniel Bailey

 

From:
Massachusetts, USA
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2022 6:17 pm    
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Thom Gustafson wrote:
A C chord works fine against any chord that has a C chord in it, but the sound of C or the inversions C/E or C/G are very different. When used as a dominant substitute in the key of G C/D sounds very different.


No doubt. I wish they all could be California Girls.
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Thom Gustafson

 

From:
Mount Vernon, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 1 Oct 2022 9:06 pm    
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The F#/C chord replacing C7 is known as a tri-tone substitution. It's very common in jazz. The progression would usually be be C7alt to F or Fm. F# is a tri-tone above or below C but can also be thought of as a major triad a half step above F, the chord of resolution. You might try playing a dominant 7th chord for this substitution. F#7 includes an E note which is the third of a C7 chord. F#7#9 also works well if the chord of resolution is F. The G double sharp (in other words A note) makes the chord effectively C13b9b5. If this was a ii7-V7-I7 progression in F the substitution would be Gm7-F#7(#9)-Cmaj7.
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