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Author Topic:  NEW TO STEEL - Carter 3x4 Adjustment
Jeff Greenspan

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 27 Sep 2022 9:52 pm    
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Hello all! Day one of owning a Carter 3x4 pedal steel and I’m looking forward to the new adventure. I got a great deal on this today, super close to my house, knowing I might have to put some TLC into it. This is my first pedal steel but I’ve been playing guitar for 20 years And have been comfortable performing quasi-luthier jobs.

So here is my dilemma with this guitar. Some of the pedals and knee levers do not perform what I found as the standard Nashville E9 tuning. I understand the hex keys on the side tune the mechanical components, however the few that I tried to turn didn’t really seem to budge so I put down the tools.

I included helpful pictures along with a diagram of what is currently going on with the mechanics - any tips or resources you could point me too would be great 🤠 excited to be a part of this cool community. Thanks!

Jeff








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Bengt Erlandsen

 

From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
Post  Posted 27 Sep 2022 10:53 pm    
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The nylon tuners on string 3 & 6 that are on the pull rods that links to your B pedal has been tightened too much. Thats why they are pulling strings 3 & 6 up to waaaay beyond the A note they are supposed to land on when pedal B is pressed. Those two nylon tuners need to be loosened/backed off so you only raise G# to A with pedal B.

The lowering rod on string 9 seems mysterious to me as this string is physically prevented from lowering due to the construction of the aluminium plate that goes across on the bottom. There are only 4 strings that is possible to lower according to the slots made on that plate. Strings 2, 4, 5 and 8 respectively. The lowering rod on string 9 seem from the picture to be connected to the same lever that lower both E strings on 4 and 8 E to D#. The nylon tuner on string 9 would then act as a physical stop that would restrict the kneelever from any further movement to prevent lowering strings 4 and 8 any further. Not sure if that rod string 9 is actually needed (it will however not lower string 9 the way this guitar is constructed)

Maybe it is possibly to adjust the nylon tuner on string 2 so it lowers D# - C# instead of only D#-D. D#-D is however a perfect option for that string and does not reaaaaaly have to be changed.

The lowering of string 5, B - A# is totally ok and should be left like that. No need to adjust that nylon tuner.

I am not 100% sure but I think this is a Carter Starter model and that one isnt really made/constructed/designed for switching between different setups on the knee levers. Those raise/lowers on the knee levers that the guitar originally came with is what you get and they are not that easy to change on this particular guitar model.

The setup is however totally fine once you get the two pulls on pedal B, string 3 % 6 sorted out so you get the correct G#-A raise on both of those strings.

Hope this helps

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12 ExtE9 7+7
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 3:51 am    
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Except for the fact that the B pedal is out of tune, everything is the way it left the factory. Except for that odd rod on string 9. I also cannot understand or explain that.



It is my opinion that the B pedal rods for string 3 & 6 should be in the other hole of the changer:



NOTE: be certain that the 6th string is a wound string. Most string sets use a plain 6th. This forum sells a string set that is appropriate for the C-S.

If you are handy, we can discuss, in the future, a modification to the LKL that will increase the performance of this guitar a lot. Until then, go easy on that lever.
.
.
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 4:09 am    
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Ok -- on closer look, either Carter-Starter changed the engineering of the right-ward moving levers completely or this has been seriously hacked.

All the bellcranks should be hanging downward. The right moving levers should have a reversing mechanism.
What I am seeing on the right-moving levers is that the cross shaft and the cranks have been rotated 180 and the rods are now being pushed or released. This could explain the added rod on string 9. This would be the only way to stop the lower. On the C_S I am familiar with, there is a 'proper' stop (not great) at the reversing mechanism.
This is a strange one. I'd like to see more photos.


This is what the C-S RKR reverser looks like (same as the LKR).


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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 4:28 am    
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Ok. I apologize for starting in on this before my morning coffee. And I apologize for giving you too much information. You have no business having to learn this stuff so soon but it's the crux of the matter.

Carter-Starters were all-pull guitars.
THIS Carter-Starter is a pull-release. It does not look hacked. Either Carter changed things up, -or- Al Brisco (who has all the Carter parts) made some changes after the demise of Carter. The one-piece changer fingers say that this was not just a garage hack.

More photos would be helpful. If the rod on string 9 is the lever stop for the LKR, I cannot see what is stopping RKR.

After a few more cups of coffee, I may change my whole story.
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Jeff Greenspan

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 6:36 am    
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Ok a lot of great comments (and even more words for me to look up lol) for those asking for more pictures what else would you like to see happy to send it!
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 6:52 am    
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Here's a good resource. It used to be the Carter site. You will find things such as a map to the undersides.

http://www.steelguitar.com/

FYI -- Carter was a good steel guitar and they were cranking out large numbers in their day. The principle, John Fabian died and the company died with him.
Carter-Starter does not share a single part with the Carter pro models. It was a venture, by Carter, to try to make an affordable student guitar to be sold by retailers such as Guitar Center. Great idea. I've done some work on C-S and I am impressed that it can be made quite solid with a small modification.

Your pull-release C-S is totally new to me. I hope we can find more info about it from people who know.
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Jeff Greenspan

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 6:53 am    
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Jon Light wrote:


It is my opinion that the B pedal rods for string 3 & 6 should be in the other hole of the changer:

If you are handy, we can discuss, in the future, a modification to the LKL that will increase the performance of this guitar a lot. Until then, go easy on that lever.
.
.


I’d like to think I am handy! I really want to learn the in and outs so I can fix if needed like I do with my guitars. Any tips on how to change the rod position?
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 6:57 am    
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Good.
I'm out the door. When I get back I'll be happy to rejoin this discussion.
Bottom line -- if you can get the B pedal to pull a precise G# > A with adjustments to the nylon tuners with the rodding as-is, you should be fine for now.
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 7:55 am    
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Ok.
Rod position:

-- Unscrew nylon tuning nut.
-- Remove rod from the bellcrank hole. Take note of which bellcrank hole it is in. This may not be correct after changing holes at the changer but it is always good to keep records of your starting points in order to get back to where you started in the event of a total screw up.
-- Pull rod into the guitar and re-insert it in the other hole.
-- Put rod in bellcrank hole.
-- screw nylon nut back on.

At the top of this page ("Pedal Steel") I have a discussion of "overtuning".
What you need to know right now is that when you tighten the nylon nut, you must stop short of tightening it up against the changer so that the changer becomes engaged. There must be slack. If your pedal cannot get to the desired pitch at maximum nylon nut adjustment (short of changer-contact), then addition pull is achieved via bellcrank & changer hole selections and, if applicable on the particular guitar, the physical pedal and/or lever stop.


Seriously, though --- nobody wants you to spend time messing underneath this thing that you could be spending on the topside, playing it. The bare minimum to get it tuned right should be the objective for now.
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Tommy Mc


From:
Middlesex VT
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 8:31 am    
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Jon Light wrote:


Carter-Starters were all-pull guitars.
THIS Carter-Starter is a pull-release. It does not look hacked. Either Carter changed things up, or Al Brisco (who has all the Carter parts) made some changes after the demise of Carter. The one-piece changer fingers say that this was not just a garage hack.



I admit to never having laid hands on a CS, but I'm curious what you see from the photos that differentiates it from All-Pull models? I may be wrong, but after looking at the few photos I can find, (to my eye) the changer looks consistent with others. I don't think the fingers are one-piece, it's just hard to see the joint in Jeff's photos.

The thing that has me perplexed is the rod connected to string 9. As I see it, the CS is designed with 12 changes. I count 13 rods on this instrument, with string 9 being the extra. It appears to originate at the string 8 bell-crank. Since the string 9 finger is non-moveable, I wonder rod was added as a positive stop for the LKR that it appears to be connected to.

Jeff, my (again humble and non-expert advice) is that your biggest problem right now is getting your B pedal to pull strings 3 & 6 to A. This should be a simple adjustment. Tune the open strings to G#, then depress the B pedal and back off the corresponding rods (marked Jon's photo) until you get an A note.

Looking at the chart you made, are you sure that you didn't make a mistake on string 7? Those changes are the ones that belong on the 8th (E) string...and from your photo, it looks like the rods are in the right place to do that.
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 8:43 am    
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Tommy -- the more I look, the more I believe that you are right. I'm just so dizzy from trying to figure out some of the other differences.

I think this still remains consistent with the idea that there is (maybe) no lever stop for LKR and the fixed lower finger of 9 creates the tunable stop for the E lowers. I still don't see what the stop is for RKR.

What we seem to have here is the elimination of the reversing mechanism for the right moving levers. This guitar appears to have the BMI method of moving the cross shaft further from the body and turning the bellcranks upside down.
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Ian Worley


From:
Sacramento, CA
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 9:26 am    
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The CS changer is all-pull, it's just a primitive design. The finger assemblies are just two pieces, the lower part of the assembly that you see in the end plate window is riveted to the actual upper finger part above the stop plate. Raises pivot off the bottom slotted stop plate, lowers pivot off the upper stop plate. They are designed so only certain strings have the open slot in the bottom stop plate to allow a lower, those strings require the added lower return springs.

It does appear that the extra rod in the string 9 lowering hole is just a stop for LKR as Jon suggests above, as there no open slot in the stop plate there so that string can't actually lower.
_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon
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Ian Worley


From:
Sacramento, CA
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 9:34 am    
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_________________
All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 9:39 am    
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Ian Worley wrote:
The CS changer is all-pull...........

Yeah -- that's all I'd ever seen. In my addled bewilderment, deciding that this was changed to a pull-release seemed to help me to understand the strange things I was seeing.

I guess they found a few more cents to cut by ditching the reversing hardware and going with this system (which works perfectly well on BMIs). Is a nylon nut on a rod as good as a lever stop?
Maybe.
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Ian Worley


From:
Sacramento, CA
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 10:29 am    
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Jon Light wrote:
...I guess they found a few more cents to cut by ditching the reversing hardware and going with this system (which works perfectly well on BMIs). Is a nylon nut on a rod as good as a lever stop? Maybe.
Very Happy a few cents in build cost, a few cents in tuning accuracy, what the heck!
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 28 Sep 2022 10:38 am    
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Ouch. That hertz!

They were so driven by a business model. The largest flaw in the C-S -- the leftward lever stops -- could have been solved with so little money and labor. My experience with a C-S in my shop convinced me that once this was addressed, I could easily recommend this guitar to a beginner.
With this new wrinkle on the reversing lever, ditching the old double-tongue, it certainly simplifies things and even eliminates a friction wear spot (I broke two tongues on my Carter Pro guitar, years ago). But questions remain.
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Bob Sykes


From:
North Carolina
Post  Posted 29 Sep 2022 8:33 am    
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I'd bet this guitar is over-tuned. Jon's excellent sticky is the go-to reference to diagnose/fix this.

It looks stock except for the extra rod/nut on string 9. Using an extra rod/nut attached to a locked changer finger is a good mod to improve knee lever stop. It appears that the string 9 rod is connected to a lower crank and there's quite a bit of slack in that rod at the changer.
Jerry Roller (RIP) was a proponent of this and describes it here: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=281909&highlight=carter+starter++lever

"Carter-Starter does not share a single part with the Carter pro models."
Minor correction: The pedal rods are the same for Starters and pro models. This is the only shared part(s).

There's no rodding chart in the CS manual but mine is factory Except I moved the 5th string lower to the 6th string. See Pics.
Modification details here: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?

Hope this helps,
Bob

Note the guitar is upside down here



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Carters Starter, D10 8+7, SD10
ISO Sustainus Ad Infinitum
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