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Topic: Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony - Bert Ligon |
Mikiya Matsuda
From:
San Francisco, California, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2022 3:43 pm |
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While I'm firm believer that playing and singing along with records, transcribing, and spending time on and off the bandstand with other (hopefully stronger) musicians is the way, I've learned a lot from David Berkman's books...
https://www.davidberkman.com/books
And if you enjoy it, studying as much classical music as you can is wonderful. It may not be obviously related to improvisation, but so many of the great jazz musicians really understood and could play music from the classical tradition.
Also, I strongly second Mike's recommendation of My Music Masterclass, JazzHeaven, and Open Studio. All the money I've spent on those sites has been worth it.
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www.mikiyamatsuda.com
www.alcatrazislanders.com
Last edited by Mikiya Matsuda on 26 Mar 2022 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 26 Mar 2022 11:06 pm
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| Mikiya Matsuda wrote: |
While I'm firm believer that playing and singing along with records, transcribing, and spending time on and off the bandstand with other (hopefully stronger) musicians is the way, I've learned a lot from David Berkman's books...
https://www.davidberkman.com/books
And if you enjoy it, studying as much classical music as you can is wonderful. It may not be obviously related to improvisation, but so many of the great jazz musicians really understand and could play music from the classical tradition.
Also, I strongly second Mike's recommendation of My Music Masterclass, JazzHeaven, and Open Studio. All the money I've spent on those sites has been worth it. |
Oh wow. I love this thread as Mike, Bill, Mikaya all are willing to share. Awesome players.
Funny you mentioned him Mikiya I bought some years ago The Jazz Harmony and Jazz Musicians creative Guide but still haven't gotten around to them. They are literally unopened right next to my practice area so maybe I should see how I get on with Connecting chords first before I jump into it. Or maybe I can alternate a little bit some days. 
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 3 Apr 2022 6:58 am
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I've hit a wall lately where my improvisation and melodic ideas have become painfully obvious and stale to me, and this thread has been really helpful.
It seems like a form of Zen practice to discuss improvisation. Contradictions are inherent in the art, and we can talk about everything it isn't. But explaining the actual practice is like trying to explain water to a fish (a form of the "direct pointing" discussed in Zen works).
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Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Apr 2022 8:21 am
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| I just want to say: improvisation—the deeper and better you get at it, the less people want to listen you. The hard facts of life! |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 3 Apr 2022 9:46 pm
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| I have this book and think it's a good jazz book. It basically uses three basic outlines that use the guide tones "b7 of the previous chord resolving to the 3rd of the next chord". The outlines are major and minor ii - V -I progressions that constitute about 75% of the chord phrases in jazz. You can invert the outlines for variety and also squeeze two out lines into the space of one. The trick is to learn how to embellish the simply outlines. The outlines are found in a number of famous jazz tunes but are not the end all of outlines obviously. This way of playing doesn't work that great on non pedal steel because it's too hard to stay in tune with a ton of notes moving fast and trying to swing the line. That's why you don't hear any straight ahead non pedal steel players on the radio. Very early jazz kind of works on non pedal steel because it's not as demanding note wise to swing it. I tried to do jazz soloing on steel and finally gave up because I couldn't come close to what I could do on guitar or sax. Mike Neer does a admirable job but I'm sure he can really cook on jazz guitar that's way beyond what he can do on steel as well. Barry Harris has some approaches where he substitutes Major 6th and Minor 6th chords for your main chord types (Major, Minor, Dom7, Half Dim). Should open up some ideas if your in a 6th tuning like C6. Here's a YouTube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59iooHhigmQ |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 4 Apr 2022 10:59 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| I just want to say: improvisation—the deeper and better you get at it, the less people want to listen you. The hard facts of life! |
I hope not because I'm trying to pull off a bebop solo on Mama Tried! 
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Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 4 Apr 2022 6:21 pm
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| Andrew Goulet wrote: |
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| I just want to say: improvisation—the deeper and better you get at it, the less people want to listen you. The hard facts of life! |
I hope not because I'm trying to pull off a bebop solo on Mama Tried! |
Hey, you only live once, man. |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2022 8:15 am
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Sounds as if the gauntlet has been thrown:
I hope not because I'm trying to pull off a bebop solo on Mama Tried! Laughing |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 5 Apr 2022 8:42 am
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Here, try these changes for the Mama Tried solo.
D - - -/C#m7b5 - F#7 -/B-7 - Bb-7 -/A-7 - D7b9 - /GM7 - - -/G-7 - C7 -/ D - - -/- - - -/
How Charlie Parker gets to the IV chord sometimes. |
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Matt Berg
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2022 11:22 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
Here, try these changes for the Mama Tried solo.
D - - -/C#m7b5 - F#7 -/B-7 - Bb-7 -/A-7 - D7b9 - /GM7 - - -/G-7 - C7 -/ D - - -/- - - -/
How Charlie Parker gets to the IV chord sometimes. |
Mr. Ligon prefers that you call it by it's former name, the half diminished. Which I get for historic/didactic reasons, however the name doesn't precisely describe the intervallic relationships.... |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2022 6:52 pm
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“I know lots of good guitar players who’ve educated themselves right out of a job.”
- Hank Williams
I think it’s good to be able to do that to Mama Tried, but I just wouldn’t. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 6:47 am
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I love this thread and happy to see that its still alive! Although it seems to have turned into a more broad discussion into different approaches to learning and applying jazz concepts to to steel etc. Calling back to Stefan's original post, I just want to say I will be watching to see what you get out of this book and thanks again for sharing your journey! Studying and applying jazz concepts to any type of music can yield some amazing results, for musicians at any level. As for Mama tried, I say why not. Lenny Breau had his start in country and folk and seemed to always look to these forms of music as inspiration for his complex jazz interpretations.
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| Barry Harris has some approaches where he substitutes Major 6th and Minor 6th chords for your main chord types (Major, Minor, Dom7, Half Dim). Should open up some ideas if your in a 6th tuning like C6. Here's a YouTube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59iooHhigmQ |
This is a great video. I spent about 30 minutes watching it and rewatching the parts that I didn't quite absorb. This represents about the maximum time I can spend with this stuff before my brain starts exploding. The thing that I think is a turn off to many people who start exploring jazz is, there are so many things you are expected to know when looking at say a chord chart. Like the fact that the chords on the chord chart are not the chords that you actually want to play. Getting a broad understanding about the general movements in music and the relationships between chords etc., seems to be key to getting a foothold. The learning of a massive amount of information so well, that it becomes so natural that you don't have to think about it. Jazz is much more like the language of music, than a type of music.
Last edited by Tim Toberer on 9 Apr 2022 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 7:46 am
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| Quote: |
| there are so many things you are expected to know when looking at say a chord chart. Like the fact that the chords on the chord chart are not the chords that you actually want to play. |
That depends on the chord chart. I usually don’t stray too far from Real Book charts. If you want to jazz up a Hank Williams song that has 4 bars of D and 4 bars of A, different story. As Mike Neer says, the way Coltrane gets from the I to the V ain’t the way Hank done it. You can still remain true to the basic structure of the harmonic movement, though, without completely destroying the song’s identity. |
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Jim Kaznosky
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 8:39 am
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If you are interested in a clear way of getting into the Barry Harris material, I found (and went through) Thinks I Learned from Barry Harris quite good at doing things in bite size chunks. Videos are plectrum guitar based but the concepts are the same. I went through a good portion and have started over. It's not gospel...just a way of organizing this in a different way from a vertical or chord scale approach. These videos are in 10 minute chunks and there are well over a hundred of them. When you start getting into the "rules" material, that's when the fun starts. I'd really suggest really learning everything up to that point. It is work, but these are good things to know in general.
https://www.youtube.com/c/ThingsIveLearnedFromBarryHarris/videos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2022 8:49 am
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| Quote: |
| That depends on the chord chart. I usually don’t stray too far from Real Book charts. |
Absolutely. Lately I've been using this tool. https://www.jazzstudies.us This is a great tool as it instantly transcribes any song into any key. Super useful for guitar and steel. The changes for the most part sound pretty good as written, depending on the arrangement. Sometimes it's hard to see when they are really just printing suggested substitutions, that may not work well on guitar for example. What helps me lately, I'm trying to see what's going on under the surface. I've been really trying to train my ear to pick out the "right" chords for whatever sound I'm going for. Usually simpler is better because I play solo finger style mostly. I try to keep the bass going with the melody, hint at comping changes and add fills to make it more interesting. Thats a lot to keep track of! I would love to someday be able to apply this technique to steel, but not sure it is possible..... |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 5:15 am
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| To further explain what I was getting at about when I said the chords written are not what you actually want to play. I guess I mean they are not telling you which voicing. A lot of that depends on the melody and wether you are providing backup or leading the melody. I am no authority on this, but it is starting to click. Using good voice leading to connect the chords in a meaningful way, usually focusing on the highest note in the chord. Sometimes you have to add passing chords or alter the chords to include passing notes etc. And if you are using substitutions it can lead to more substitutions to bring it all together. In solo playing, you are often building a chord off of every melody note which includes the bass and harmonic movement. These are things that are often not explained. I feel like I am having to figure them out. All part of the challenge I suppose and makes it unique to the player. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 8 Apr 2022 6:33 am
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Yes, that makes your point much clearer. Solo playing is a whole different world from playing in a group, and I think you have made a good distinction between the two in your comment.
If I’m playing in a group and don’t know a song, sometimes I find myself sight-reading a chart and just slamming through changes as best I can without regard to melody or groove. I think a lot of throw-together bands do this, especially jazz bands, and it is the reason so many of them can sound disjointed. The fact that you know a chord with an extension that reads out to the end of a page doesn’t mean it’s going to sound good in any context. The music is going to sound much better if you know the song, and you know how the group is going to be playing it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 9 Apr 2022 5:32 am
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| Quote: |
| Learned from Barry Harris quite good at doing things in bite size chunks. |
Since I have a short attention span, and struggle to find time to practice in general, I will be checking these out for sure. They seem taylor made for someone like me. Thanks for the reference!
I'm always looking for short videos that try to explain musical concepts. This is a useful video and hits on many of the issues that have been brought up. I believe this is very similar to Joe Pass's approach to jazz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWlNtgL7b-I. To me this seems like a more direct approach with the actual melody being the focus. Although he is still using scales.  |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 18 Apr 2022 9:20 am
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This book is kicking my @ss. However it shows me just how much I have to practice. Damn arpeggios. Everything is built off of it in all directions.
Getting this at speed may take me a while so for those who are not a fan it may be awhile before I post again.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 18 Sep 2022 1:57 am
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| Ricky Newman wrote: |
I found some tab I sketched out for the first outline a long time ago. I liked it, but I don’t think it took me very far as a lap steel instruction book. In the years since, I’ve enjoyed this book for listening and general jazz learning, mostly with a keyboard. It’s a very detailed exploration of voice leading in jazz, organized around three main outlines played over a 2-5-1 cadence with lots of great examples. It’s one really smart guy’s way of understanding and explaining jazz.
I’d love to be part of a study group, and can certainly tab some bits out for folks who are interested. That said, I don’t think it’s really the right approach to the book.... |
Ricky I look forward to our Ligon journey.
The examples you posted from the book layout easily on E13 Not sure you have found the logical positions looks like a bit more moving.Especially with less than 10/12 strings.
Let's try and keep as much as possible to the right octave of the written music.
Immediately the positions relate to the chord positions on E13.
Dm7b5 - G7 - C are the same frets where you find those chords so instantly it felt like a fragment of a minor harmonic major bebop scale.
All roads in this book lead to the scales. Yess finally its clicking slowly. Can't wait to have our catchup and work together. 
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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