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Topic: Tuning Before Electronic Tuners |
john buffington
From: Owasso OK - USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 2:11 pm
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I once asked the late John Hughey (at the Tulsa Show) if he used an electronic tuner to tune by he said: "No, it makes your ear lazy, I get my E's off a tuner and that's all, if I don't use a tuner, I use my E Tuning Fork only". |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 4:19 pm
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There is nothing inherently wrong with using a tuner. Indeed, there are some situations where it might be advantageous. There is something wrong with a player who can't tune without one.
Roger Rettig wrote: |
...He took the time to explain to us that 'No guitar is perfectly in tune; depending on what key I'm playing in and where on the fingerboard it lies, I must adjust my tuning accordingly'. |
Which sorta parallels what it says right in the manual for the Peterson tuner. |
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Roger Rettig
From: Naples, FL
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 4:31 pm
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My argument too. Having a tuner for live situations is a professional requirement these days and will enable silent corrections to your instrument.
But not being able to tune without one? That's a problem. |
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Mitch Ellis
From: Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2022 6:00 pm
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Jeremy Threlfall wrote: |
i love that story of Tom Brumley playing the Together Again solo on a broken down unfamiliar Fender 800 or something |
What's the story? I'd like to hear it.
Mitch |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From: now in Western Australia
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Dave Magram
From: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 6:17 pm
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Well, this thread seems to have evolved (or devolved) into two camps:
- Camp One whose position seems to be, “I just tune by ear. I don’t need no stinking electronic tuner to tell me what to do.”
- Camp Two whose position seems to be, “I know how to tune by ear. But when I am performing in venues that can be quite noisy, I find an electronic tuner to be an invaluable tool.”
It seems to me that for folks who are playing alone at home or in a studio, it doesn’t matter how you tune, because it is a quiet environment.
But for those folks in Camp One who are about to perform with a band in a noisy venue environment (and aren’t they all noisy?), here’s something to consider:
- Set up your steel at home and tune it by ear to where it sounds perfect to you.
- Then with a simple electronic tuner (like a Boss TU-12), measure each note (open strings, pedals, knee levers), and write out your own “personalized” tuning chart.
- Take your “personalized” tuning chart and your electronic tuner along to the gig, and use them to simply replicate the settings that you deemed perfect in the quiet of your home.
A “Best of Both Worlds” solution...everybody wins!
- Dave |
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Clyde Mattocks
From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 9:47 pm
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In the old days, I would be the first one there and carry an A harmonica to tune with. As the guys came in, they would tune with me. Then the front man would break a string every other song and run in the back room to change it. Then he would come back out a quarter step sharp of the band and we'd have to chase him up the register all night. It finally got back in sync when he had gone completely from E to F. _________________ LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Tony Prior
From: Charlotte NC
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 12:54 am
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I used a 440 fork, still have it. I still use the tuner for "close" but then tune by ear to the "E's" which are typical 441 or 442. _________________ Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dave Mudgett
From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 2:04 am
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For 30+ years, I've kept a tuner on my pedal boards - initially for guitar (I haven't played steel that long). For the last 3 years or so, I've had a Peterson Strobo Stomp tuner on each pedal board I gig with. I guess I can picture a situation where I might need to use, let's say, their E9 or C6 tuning standard, and have fiddled with them some. Some day it may rescue me in a critical situation where I really can't tune by ear. By that I mean, where they really get pissed off if they can hear me tuning.
But I have never used the presets on a gig. I just get my E's (around A = 441-442 Hz - I don't fuss too much about it being exactly perfect), and tune everything else by ear to those. I figure that if I can't tune up in a noisy environment, then I'm not gonna be able to play in a noisy environment. And many if not most of my gig environments are pretty noisy.
On gigs, I frequently double on guitar in standard EADGBE tuning, and often have another in an open tuning for slide guitar - I use a few different tunings. I use a tuner for those. I usually have to tweak the 3rds of the slide tunings by ear some, and, depending on the guitar, may need to tweak the standard-tuned guitar a wee bit. But they are a very different beast, as far as I'm concerned.
In the 70s, before I had access to any type of multi-pitch tuner, I tuned my guitars (wasn't playing steel then) A=440 to a tuning fork and learned to count beats between strings to get close to equal temperament. That came from Hideo Kamimoto's "Complete Guitar Repair", page 56. It was a bit of a PITA, but it did help avoid really sour chords, as compared to tuning by harmonics. Believe me, my first electronic tuner in the late 80s was a revelation. So I'm not against using a tuner. But I find it less useful for steel. |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 2:31 am
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Geeez... just give me an E and then back off... _________________ I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 8:22 am
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Dave Magram wrote: |
But for those folks in Camp One who are about to perform with a band in a noisy venue environment (and aren’t they all noisy?), here’s something to consider:
- Set up your steel at home and tune it by ear to where it sounds perfect to you.
- Then with a simple electronic tuner (like a Boss TU-12), measure each note (open strings, pedals, knee levers), and write out your own “personalized” tuning chart.
- Take your “personalized” tuning chart and your electronic tuner along to the gig, and use them to simply replicate the settings that you deemed perfect in the quiet of your home.
A “Best of Both Worlds” solution...everybody wins! |
I agree, that's great...until you lose your little tuning chart, or your tuner craps out or gets left at home. |
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Andy Volk
From: Boston, MA
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 9:12 am
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In the Billy Hew Len archive (track #3, I believe) you can hear Billy quickly change tunings by ear. You don't need perfect pitch, just good relative pitch to do so. _________________ Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Roger Rettig
From: Naples, FL
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 9:17 am
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'Perfect pitch' is a gift; good relative-pitch, while it's less rare, will save the day in many situations. |
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Doug Beaumier
From: Northampton, MA
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Erv Niehaus
From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 9:50 am
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Some say perfect pitch is a curse.
Every sound they hear is off pitch.
Erv |
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Roger Rettig
From: Naples, FL
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 10:39 am
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A good friend of mine, Simon Fricker, a conductor/pianist/MD with whom I was lucky enough to work a lot, has perfect pitch.
It would drive him crazy sometimes; the pianos in some facilities, even TV studios, can be a little 'off' and he just has to deal with it. The pitch of an A/C system annoys him, too.
On the plus side, however, Simon can hear a ten-note chord and spell it out for you without a reference point. And, when we had to contrive some backing vocals for a show, you'd take his direction unhesitatingly.
He'd also have fun with me when I was playing E9th and had to navigate my way through the well-known trouble spots (three above 'zero' with A pedal and F lever); I'd see that twinkle in his eye and I'd retort: 'Why do you think I pass through that inversion as fast as I can?' |
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Bud Angelotti
From: Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 11:22 am
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I have a cassette tape somewhere that was created by Frenchy. He goes thru the whole process of tuning by beats, string by string. It was tough but very useful.
Nowadays I use a tuner for one or 2 notes and do the rest by beats, sort of a combination of the 2. It's a P/P so it's very stable.
Bud _________________ Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Doug Beaumier
From: Northampton, MA
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 12:11 pm
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Quote: |
Simon can hear a ten-note chord and spell it out for you without a reference point. |
That reminds me of the time I was trying out a lap steel at the local music store, and I tuned it to B11. A few minutes later, one of the store employees came over, and I simply strummed the open strings... he looked at me and said "B11?" I was surprised by that. The guy was not a steel guitarist. He played sax and he didn't know anything about steel guitars or steel guitar tunings. It's not just that he could identify an 11th chord, but how did he know it was B11, as opposed to, for example, Bb11 or C11, etc. _________________ My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Roger Rettig
From: Naples, FL
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 12:22 pm
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It sounds as though he had perfect pitch, then.
As you say, identifying an 11th chord is one thing. Naming the root is something else. |
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Dave Magram
From: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 5:02 pm
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Donny Hinson wrote: |
Dave Magram wrote: |
But for those folks in Camp One who are about to perform with a band in a noisy venue environment (and aren’t they all noisy?), here’s something to consider:
- Set up your steel at home and tune it by ear to where it sounds perfect to you.
- Then with a simple electronic tuner (like a Boss TU-12), measure each note (open strings, pedals, knee levers), and write out your own “personalized” tuning chart.
- Take your “personalized” tuning chart and your electronic tuner along to the gig, and use them to simply replicate the settings that you deemed perfect in the quiet of your home.
A “Best of Both Worlds” solution...everybody wins! |
I agree, that's great...until you lose your little tuning chart, or your tuner craps out or gets left at home. |
Yep! I agree. That's why I taped a mini-version of my JI tuning chart inside the cover of my Boss TU-12 electronic tuner--which is ALWAYS kept inside my PSG case (and carry a spare 9V battery for it). And I also keep a little 1/4 ounce tuning fork in my guitar case (and yes, I do know how to use it).
The Boy Scout motto: "Be Prepared" applies equally well to PSG players.
REAL-LIFE EXAMPLE:
I just played two gigs in the past three days, and at both of them before the gig, the drummer spent about ten minutes whacking his drums as hard as he could, and the lead guitar and a guest lead guitar player (both decibel-addicts) were both warming up with their amps set at 12 (determined to beat Spinal Tap in the Lead Guitar Decibel Olympics)--despite the sound engineer's requests to keep the stage volume down (he had mic'ed the amps and the drums).
Good thing I had already inserted my Etymotics ear plugs in my ears!
But, regardless of all of that noise going on, I was able to easily, accurately, and quickly check my D-10's tuning with my little Boss TU-12 electronic tuner (with the tuning chart taped inside the cover) in about 3 minutes.
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Bottom line--if whatever tuning method you use works for you, and you're happy with it: ET, JI, "by ear", mean-tone, etc....Great--it's fine with me!
To quote a famous Nashville philosopher, "It don't bother old Road Hog Lester Moran none!"
I've seen the debates about which tuning method is better many times on the SGF, and I get the impression that many people do not understand how these different methods came about, and why they did so.
The purpose of my first post above was simply to explain why it is so difficult to tune a PSG--due to the math underlying the pure (Pythagorean) musical intervals.
It really shouldn't be a debate about personal philosophies--because the problem is actually due to the mathematics of the chromatic musical scale.
-Dave |
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Lee Baucum
From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 5:31 pm
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Quote: |
that's great...until you lose your little tuning chart, or your tuner craps out or gets left at home. |
Fortunately, I have a very simple tuning method that is easy to remember.
Also, I carry three little tuners with me, and extra batteries!
~Lee |
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