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Topic: Comping behind a vocalist |
Tomas Enguidanos
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 3:07 am |
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I have been spending some time playing along with recordings trying to make sure not to step on the vocals. Imagining I am playing steel for Merle Haggard helps, I sure wouldn’t want to step on his vocals. Any pointers about backing up a singer would be appreciated.
Tomas |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 4:51 am
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Something my Mentor Lloyd Green passed on to me:
"Ricky; you are part of a conversation within the song"
So imagine your steel guitar being a voice and having a conversation with the singer; you don't want to yell over his voice and you don't want to start speaking another language nobody can understand on stage...ha...; as a good band is everyone having the same musical conversation.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 6:08 am
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Wait for your spot to play was the best advice I've ever gotten on that subject.
Works for me... |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 12:49 pm
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| Much like what Ricky said, I recall Lloyd Green saying something like, "be the other voice". It's an easy phrase to remember and anytime I start to think I might be getting too busy on my fills, this phrase comes to mind. |
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Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 1:06 pm
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| as Jeff Newman said,"If the singers lips are moving, shut up.". |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 3:11 pm
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If you're too loud one minute, and too low the next, work on your dynamics. I'm just a hacker (and don't really know a lot about music), but here are 5 things that have helped me:
1.) Learn volume dynamics! Learn how to play softly with the amp turned up. (You'd be surprised how many players simply can't do this. They turn the amp volume down to prevent them from playing too loudly.) And learn when NOT to play loud.  (Note to bands - The last chord of a song shouldn't be twice as loud. That's for Elvis' music.  )
2.) Learn register dynamics! Try not to play in the same register when the vocalist or featured instrumentalist are doing their thing. (This is why some steelers often played those high harmonics over a singer or other instrument. Their high notes were not intruding behind what the singer or other instrumentalist were doing.)
3.) Play chords behind single notes, and single notes behind chords, and learn the value of a single held note. (That's so what you're doing doesn't compete or cover up something else.) If you've got singers doing 3-part harmony, don't be clogging them with fancy chords. Too many chords just makes a cacophony.
4.) Listen to the band, not just what you're doing! Learn to accentuate and enhance what's going on with the music as a whole. (You're there to improve the sound and the song. It's not an audition, or an opportunity to impress others with your newest lick or lever.)
5.) And lastly, keep in mind that not playing over a singer isn't a hard-fast rule. There are times when you might actually want to play over a singer...but you really have to be careful when you're doing to do this! Yeah, if you don't know what you're doing, go back and read #1 through #4...or just hang out. |
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Jon Voth
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 6:54 pm
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These are all good things, especially Donny' s notes and things I need to learn as well.
I too often find myself wanting to play with the rhythm & melody of the vocals, because that's what I know of the song.
I think I remember in a Franklin method that Paul suggested to play along with Johnny Cash's American Recordings-songs that are spartan, and you can practice adding fills in a simple and open context. |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 12 Jul 2022 7:16 pm
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Good advice so far, I believe.
Learning a singer's infections and phrasings of passages is a great way to get ideas for steel lines, too. My wife, who is an incredible vocalist, told me that it was much easier to sing harmony in a band when she learned to imitate a lead singer (at least as a jumping-off point).
Another thing to consider is that I believe if you listen to some music (like some Buck Owens, for example) you'll find lead instruments continue behind the vocals, but at a lower volume and with more emphasis on rhythm.
I think "less is more" is the most widely applicable rule you'll find when trying to play tastefully.
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Roy Carroll
From:
North of a Round Rock
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 5:39 am
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I have played in bands where the singer was covered up by the fiddle player or the guitar player ( played everything he knew every song) He lasted 2 weeks on the road. The band would not tolerate over playing or you did not have a job. I learned at an early age to under play and look for the holes. When you are trying to feed your family, one tends to do what the Boss says.  Many of us here are old road players and get that kind of mentality. Lloyd Green is ALWAYS right!
_________________
Just north of the Weird place, south of Georgetown |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 6:28 am
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Besides the other good advice make sure you know the melody so you can work with it or around it. Also it can help to frame the vocals and set the singer up. Play the first note the singer is going to sing after your solo as the last note of your solo. Use basic counterpoint ideas.
Learn the lyrics. If the most important part of the narrative is the 3rd verse then don’t play that verse.
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Bob |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 8:53 am
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_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com
Last edited by Ricky Davis on 14 Jul 2022 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 8:59 am
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[quote="Ricky Davis"]
This was another great advice from my first gig with singer/songwriter Gary P. Nunn.
"Ricky; if you can't SING the song; then you can't PLAY the song."
I have found that to be true. If it isn't in your head, it won't come out of your fingers. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 3:25 pm Know the song, and know what to do.
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| Roger Crawford wrote: |
| as Jeff Newman said,"If the singers lips are moving, shut up.". |
That's an opinion, not a rule! And luckily, there's a thread elsewhere about a song ("Every Steel Guitar Is Crying") that's a perfect example. It shows how it can be done! For the record, I'm not suggesting that everyone play crappy loud over or behind the singer; it takes special skills in dynamics and a well-developed ear and arranging skill to pull it off. Listen to the referenced song, several times if necessary. I'm not going to take time to point out the many times (dozens?) in that song that the steeler is playing right behind the singer. It's never intrusive, or in poor taste, and it's done with sublime expertise. It's great.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to the masters, both present and past, who are (and have in the past) been gracious enough to come here and help us. We're fortunate to have them give us their opinions and expert guidance. But I think it would be beneficial for more of us to get out of this mindset that there's only one good guitar, only one good sound or style, only one way to play this thing, and only one way to back up a singer. 
"We now return to your regularly scheduled program." |
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Tomas Enguidanos
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 6:49 pm Great advice all around on this thread.
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Nice listening to all of you on this topic that is really important. I personally loved Tom Brumeley behind Buck Owen’s. He was right in the pocket, but never stepped on Buck.
I would love to play everyday more less , playing with great singers. Gigs are starting to pick up and folks love the steel, and love great singing. I too focus on the melody and try to emphasize the emotion expressed by the song and the singer. Plus trying to respond musically with the others who are playing fills and solos. I loved the way Buddy Emmon’s and Leon Rhodes backing up ET. Playing great is also listening great and and be really present and engaged.
I am also a big Don Williams fan and loved Lloyd’s playing on his recordings. Also a big fan of Bob Wills, Emmy Lou Harris and so many others to listen to and learn from!
My last thought is how recording is helping me clean up my playing. Thanks guys,
Tomás |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jul 2022 8:10 pm Re: Great advice all around on this thread.
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| Tomas Enguidanos wrote: |
Nice listening to all of you on this topic that is really important. I personally loved Tom Brumeley behind Buck Owen’s. He was right in the pocket, but never stepped on Buck.
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I take it you've never really listened to Buck's song "Hello Trouble"? In the 2nd half of the song, Tom is playing all over Buck's singing. But Tom's not playing too loud, so it sounds fine! 
There are rules...and there are exceptions. And sometimes, those exceptions are a breath of fresh air.
All IMHO, of course.  |
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Larry Ball
From:
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 14 Jul 2022 7:51 am
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Great to hear all the pro’s speak about backing a singer or how to play in a band. “That’s Why You Are Pro’s”. I was listening to a concert with Stuie French (The French Family Band) from Nashville recently who had the great “Charlie McCoy” on the show. He was asked a similar question, and being an “A list session player his response was…The Singers are a Picture and we backing musicians are the frame around that picture.
_________________
Mullen SD10, Sho~Bud SD10 LDG, Show-Pro SD10 LDG, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100 MK11, Telonic's F100 Multi-Taper Super Pro V/P, |
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Willie Sims
From:
PADUCAH, KY, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2022 8:57 am
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HOW MEANY OF YOU STEEL PLAYER'S KNOW THE LYRICS
TO ALL OF THE SONGS YOU PLAY ,ALL I NEED IS THE MELODY AND THE CHORDS. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2022 9:39 am
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Nothing like hearing examples of great comping...
Here are two examples of what many of the responses on this thread are talking about:
The Heart That You Own - Roy Thomson and his son Tommy Thomson (psg & rhythm gtr & vocal)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qRMvshOBtI
Notice that Roy plays absolutely nothing while Tommy is singing.
Tennessee Waltz - Anita Camarella and Bruce Bouton (only psg & vocal)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpq_unRGVI4
Notice that Bruce adds a few pads under the vocals-- probably because there is no other instrument at the session. If you watch some of the videos of Bruce playing with Ricky Skaggs, he often plays nothing while other instruments do fills, etc.
- Dave |
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Tomas Enguidanos
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2022 2:14 pm Thanks, Thanks a lot….
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Hey Dave,
Long time no see. Great to meet up with you here. Thanks for your videos. Cool to hear the duet with Bruce Bouton. He sounds terrific. I found the Pete Franklin Video helpful. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2022 11:32 am
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| I’m going to print Donny Hinson’s first response in giant bold font, frame it, and hang it on the wall in my band’s rehearsal room where everyone can see it. Including the drummer, who oftentimes sounds like he’s playing drum chords over everything. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 27 Jul 2022 12:08 pm
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It’s all about the song. The singers voice IS the song, and the singer is the “star”. Everybody else is there to support the song. Sometimes the best way to support the song is to play behind the singer. Sometimes to play along with the singer. Sometimes to not play at all. But if you’re all working together to support the song, it’s going to be fine.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 8:15 pm
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| Another tip is to record yourself with the band every night and listen back on the way home from the gig. You can hear how well your playing fit into the context of the song better than in real time while you're playing. Sometimes it's surprising to hear what worked and what didn't. |
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Landon Johnson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2022 12:31 pm
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As an underplayer, I'll sit out entire verses and even songs. Many times I'll play an intro and won't play again till I have a solo...
One such time was when I was filling in for a person who was apparently an overplayer. The very first song was one of those 'intro then tacet' songs, and when the intro passed, the bandleader stopped the entire song to 'give the steel player a little more time to get ready' depite having played the intro!
I take the opportunity during these tacets to tune - he thought I was trying to play but couldn't be heard.We did finally get it sorted out and they did invite me back. |
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