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Post new topic string height over cabinet and it's effects on tone (?)
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Author Topic:  string height over cabinet and it's effects on tone (?)
J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 5 Jul 2022 1:11 pm    
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I have long argued that since the "Emmons"-style design took over the PSG world, "things" have changed fundamentally in PSG building and maybe inadvertently so. One of the major changes was that in contrast to the previously prevalent "cabinet-neck" designs in the fashion of Bigsby, which was an aluminum guitar like a frypan bolted on a wooden cabinet or the Sho-Bud design wich was a consolidation into ONE mass of a cabinet and neck (wooden neck guitars), the Emmons guitars, after the the Bolt-On led the way to two different parts and essentially the strings attached to the CABINET almost an inch over the that body and the neck just being "in between" them.

When we compare Fender PSG's (besides the PS210!)... guitars wich were build like a non-pedal console with a thick "slab" sound board witch the "neck" just hinted in the shape... the string low over the fretboard, the strings vibrated just half an inch over the sound-board... most of the tension was longitudinal, whereas on PSG after the "Emmons"-design (Zum, Franklin, EMCI, Carter etc) the neck gradually lost structural significance, as some use just a "cap" (Carter, new-MSA... etc) and the string fly high over the cabinet and their ends attached to "posts" creating a "leverage" on the cabinet.
Fender PSG of all 3 basic changer generations (over the bridge pull to over a roller bridge pull and finally direct changer-bridge) ALL sound very different than any post-Bigsby PSG. One can point to many things, like pick ups etc and evidently the shape of the sound-board (slab vs. inverted "U" cabinet).... but in my opinion, string distance and thus how strings make the soundboard vibrate may be the most overlooked difference. You can't make an Emmons sound like a Fender and likewise, you would fail at making a Fender sound like an Emmons. Evidently, some will argue that "nothing" will ever sound like THEIR Emmons... and I get that, but it's not the point here.


I mentioned this before. When I built our left-tune-&-change prototype on a lefty MSA Classic, after all test we decided the un-tighten the cabinet from the frame (something I always wanted to do)... and while the tuning went "South" for a while, it sounded like the guitar took a "big breath".
Then we knocked off the front apron to see. The tuning went further "South" but again, the guitar took a bigger "breath"... it sounded fuller.

So, I invite to discuss this and it's evidently not about "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"... I hope some can share about their own experiments.

Thanks!... J-D.
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John Swain


From:
Winchester, Va
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2022 6:07 am    
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JD, not my own experiments but I recall Winnie Winston said his original build of "The Beast" had a 1"" neck with the strings high over the feet board. It proved to be very unstable with hysteresis and cabinet drop problems. He later redesigned it lower the neck and strings and it improved! Also Bud Carter said he designed the Carters with lower necks and strings to make them more stable. Just food for thought.JS
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 6 Jul 2022 9:29 am    
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John Swain wrote:
JD, not my own experiments but I recall Winnie Winston said his original build of "The Beast" had a 1"" neck with the strings high over the feet board. It proved to be very unstable with hysteresis and cabinet drop problems. He later redesigned it lower the neck and strings and it improved! Also Bud Carter said he designed the Carters with lower necks and strings to make them more stable. Just food for thought.JS


Thanks John.
All which goes to my "suspicion".

It would seem logical, that when we exaggerate the experiment, and would put the string 12 inches above the cabinet, their tension would exercise more leverage on the cabinet and thus more "bending" effect... wich would lead to more detuning or as I call it "capricious tuning behavior" and require an exponentially stronger, thicker cabinet.

Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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John Hyland

 

From:
South Australia
Post  Posted 7 Jul 2022 12:31 am    
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J D Sauser wrote:
John Swain wrote:
JD, not my own experiments but I recall Winnie Winston said his original build of "The Beast" had a 1"" neck with the strings high over the feet board. It proved to be very unstable with hysteresis and cabinet drop problems. He later redesigned it lower the neck and strings and it improved! Also Bud Carter said he designed the Carters with lower necks and strings to make them more stable. Just food for thought.JS


Thanks John.
All which goes to my "suspicion".

It would seem logical, that when we exaggerate the experiment, and would put the string 12 inches above the cabinet, their tension would exercise more leverage on the cabinet and thus more "bending" effect... wich would lead to more detuning or as I call it "capricious tuning behavior" and require an exponentially stronger, thicker cabinet.

Thanks!... J-D.


For sure the higher the strings the more the load is eccentric and exponentially increases the torsion on the body. This is one reason why I have curved the top of my soundboard prototype as discussed in your other thread on floating soundboards. [ https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=382522 ].

Not only does this give space for a compression strut between the bridge and the nut but as the cross section curve of the shell falls away from the centreline there is suitable string to fret clearance at the 1st string so the bar doesn’t hit the soundboard or frets.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 7 Jul 2022 12:41 am    
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It's fairly obvious I think that the higher the strings are, the more leverage will be suffered by the cabinet. This can be counteracted by making everything stronger, but we want light guitars.

Beautiful tone is no use if the tuning drifts. Tone is subjective but tuning is not.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 7 Jul 2022 7:25 am    
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Ian Rae wrote:
It's fairly obvious I think that the higher the strings are, the more leverage will be suffered by the cabinet. This can be counteracted by making everything stronger, but we want light guitars.

Beautiful tone is no use if the tuning drifts. Tone is subjective but tuning is not.


The question is, is it -for the purpose of TONE ALONE- desirable to keep strings low or high?

Evidently, the higher or lower they are over the body, acting with more or less leverage, will affect "tone coloring" from the body.

We have had years of discussions about the pro and cons of sting-thru-the-body attach alone... on guitars like Rickenbacher Bakelite guitars with heavy mass brittle bodies with the strings barely clearing 1/4" over the neck.

I must say, I do NOT think that when builders, like most prominently Emmons, started to build guitars which strings would be almost an inch over the cabinet, did so with TONE in mind... I think it was purely a construction design.
Yet, I DO believe that it has shaped the sound of most PSGs from then on.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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John Hyland

 

From:
South Australia
Post  Posted 7 Jul 2022 2:23 pm    
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Gut feeling alone i don’t see how the string height alone will affect the tone/sustain etc. All other things would not be affected by the string height. Ie tension, connection to the sound board.

A key item which does affect the sound is the break angle between the string plane and the tuners and finger cam. This might be why some designs have a high string height to get a larger break angle in particular at the nut.

Break angle is a interesting topic and maybe this is where your thread could develop. Some instruments like a shallow break such as the banjo bridge to tail piece. Too much break angle adds down force and on a banjo this deadens the the vibration of the skin. On an acoustic instrument killing the top vibration is bad. It probably less of a concern on a pickup instrument. I suspect it must have some effect but what I don’t know.

Keyless and keyed instruments are two extremes of break angle so maybe it goes back to the arguments of which type of PSG is best which I’m sure have been beaten to death already.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 7 Jul 2022 7:58 pm    
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John Hyland wrote:
Gut feeling alone i don’t see how the string height alone will affect the tone/sustain etc. All other things would not be affected by the string height. Ie tension, connection to the sound board.

A key item which does affect the sound is the break angle between the string plane and the tuners and finger cam. This might be why some designs have a high string height to get a larger break angle in particular at the nut.

Break angle is a interesting topic and maybe this is where your thread could develop. Some instruments like a shallow break such as the banjo bridge to tail piece. Too much break angle adds down force and on a banjo this deadens the the vibration of the skin. On an acoustic instrument killing the top vibration is bad. It probably less of a concern on a pickup instrument. I suspect it must have some effect but what I don’t know.

Keyless and keyed instruments are two extremes of break angle so maybe it goes back to the arguments of which type of PSG is best which I’m sure have been beaten to death already.


Of course, the pressure with which the string rests on the bridge and over the nut, is of utter importance. Fender -just to mention an example- had low string clearance over the mass of the body (which was "one" body-&-neck") and had their keyheads sunk into the bodies, which created some "break-angle" and thus pressure on the nut, yet on the sound-side they -in my opinion- lacked pressure on the bridge as the strings were attached virtually on the top... just very little below the bridges high-point.

One could thus conceive an electric ("silent"-body") guitar with low string clearance and still accentuate the "break-angle". So, the two considerations are separate.
Which, on the pickup side at least, brings the "string-thru-body-attach" vs. the more shallow "top-attach" back to the discussion IF there wasn't a changer obstructing.
Can "string-thru" be considered a steeper "break-angle"?


I even question some keyless tuners, from those that push against the longitude of the cabinet vs. those which pull down or run on a horizontal driver screw. Can the different design concepts affect tone? I think that ever so slightly, yes!

Right now, on the PSG, in my opinion, the biggest issue we have is the large radius bridge and mechanical clutter attached to it, the changer being on the "sound-side" of the instrument even more so.
With that most typical layout, scratching our heads over string heights, "break-angles" or how a keyless tuner pulls a string and against what it pushes or pulls may seem trivial. But IF "we" could fix the changer issue, we'd be close to where it all started in 1932... and we all know, that there were great sounding non-pedal steels and some which didn't quite make it into history as impressive.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

John Hyland

 

From:
South Australia
Post  Posted 7 Jul 2022 8:43 pm    
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J D Sauser wrote:
John Hyland wrote:
Gut feeling alone i don’t see how the string height alone will affect the tone/sustain etc. All other things would not be affected by the string height. Ie tension, connection to the sound board.

A key item which does affect the sound is the break angle between the string plane and the tuners and finger cam. This might be why some designs have a high string height to get a larger break angle in particular at the nut.

Break angle is a interesting topic and maybe this is where your thread could develop. Some instruments like a shallow break such as the banjo bridge to tail piece. Too much break angle adds down force and on a banjo this deadens the the vibration of the skin. On an acoustic instrument killing the top vibration is bad. It probably less of a concern on a pickup instrument. I suspect it must have some effect but what I don’t know.

Keyless and keyed instruments are two extremes of break angle so maybe it goes back to the arguments of which type of PSG is best which I’m sure have been beaten to death already.


One could conceive an electric ("silent"-body") guitar with low string clearance and still accentuate the "break-angle".
Which, on the pickup side at least, brings the "string-thru-body-attach" vs. the more shallow "top-attach" back to the discussion IF there wasn't a changer obstructing.
Can "string-thru" be considered a steeper "break-angle"?


I even question some keyless tuners, from those that push against the longitude of the cabinet vs. those which pull down or run on a horizontal driver screw. Can the different design concepts affect tone? I think that ever so slightly, yes!

Right now, on the PSG, in my opinion, the biggest issue we have is the large radius bridge and mechanical clutter attached to it, the changer being on the "sound-side" of the instrument even more so.
With that most typical layout, scratching our heads over string heights, "break-angles" or how a keyless tuner pulls a string and against what it pushes or pulls may seem trivial. But IF "we" could fix the changer issue, we'd be close to where it all started in 1932... and we all know, that there were great sounding non-pedal steels and some which didn't quite make it into history as impressive.

... J-D.


I think it is possible to over think something like this. In the end will the string sound will be transferred to the pickup. This requires the string to be able to vibrate freely. So what causes the string to vibrate freely. Clearly a connection to something solid and hard is needed. I have seen a couple of interesting YOUtube videos where;
1: the strings where stretched between to fixed benches and the pickup placed independently. It sounded ok.
2: The body of a Solid body guitar was progressively cut down unless almost none was left. The effect on the sustain was very minimal.

So does this make the body unimportant?? I dont think so. Apart from providing a structure and an acoustic sound board the body attenuates the native sound in a way similar to cutting particular equaliser bands. Note you can only cut frequencies not elevate them. The frequency cut is a function of the material. Maple exhibits a high crisp frequency as witnessed by rubbing your fingers on a piece of veneer. Mahogany will give a more mellow tone. The resultant instrument sound follows this.

In a similar manner the properties of the material of the rollers and the top finger cam will also attenuate the native sound of the strings. Maybe the metal of older instruments is different to those used today like Stainless steel, alum. Cast metals, CNC metals, Polymer!! The older metals and manufacturer may just have a better sound attenuation .

In regard to break angles it is probably more an issue with lightweight materials where excessive pressure will kill the vibrations. I dont think pedal (or lap) steels suffer that problem. Hence their method of string attachment is less of a concern.

Likewise the mass of a PSG and the string loads is much higher than any effect fingers will place on the bridge and any potential detrimental effect is minimised. Also the fingers are a relatively loose attachment in comparison to the string tension and bridge attachment. That said any attachment may cause some attenuation of frequency and if they are the right frequencies then it may not be a bad thing.
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Georg Sørtun


From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
Post  Posted 8 Jul 2022 1:01 am    
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Not sure if my fully functioning "prototype" belong in this post, but anyway…
https://www.gunlaug.no/msc/smc-090617.html

String height over laminated floating neck: 9 mm.
Vibration traveling distance between top of bridge and soundboard: about 11 inches.

Tuning stability: less than 0.2 cents for all pedal/lever combos not operating the individually measured open strings, for all but 8th string (E) which is about 0.5 cents at worst. No audible detuning.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 8 Jul 2022 6:42 am    
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Georg Sørtun wrote:
Not sure if my fully functioning "prototype" belong in this post, but anyway…
https://www.gunlaug.no/msc/smc-090617.html

String height over laminated floating neck: 9 mm.
Vibration traveling distance between top of bridge and soundboard: about 11 inches.

Tuning stability: less than 0.2 cents for all pedal/lever combos not operating the individually measured open strings, for all but 8th string (E) which is about 0.5 cents at worst. No audible detuning.


VERY interesting subject and experiment, which encompasses two subjects we are discussing separately: Floating Soundboard and String Height over SOUND-BOARD (as the NECK in THAT experiment acts as the SOUND BOARD).

Is that YOUR project, Georg?
I am surprised that the keyhead being on or not the floating neck or at least attached butting into the floating neck is not shown or discussed (?)

Evidently (I know I used that word a LOT), one of the issues that MIGHT have come up is length changes of his neck due to temperature changes... and issues some Emmons-BoltOn critics claim to have experienced... but I have rarely heard metal neck-Bigsby owner complain about (maybe because they had other less trivial tuning issues to battle). I would love to hear about that.

I think some here already know that I am in favor of the floating soundboard approach, for tone and separation of mechanical constraints the frame only ought to deal with.
I evidently (again!) prefer cast metals over "billet" or extruded, for being more brittle (after all, bells are cast, not machined from a chunk of extrusion).


Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Georg Sørtun


From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
Post  Posted 8 Jul 2022 8:36 am    
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J D Sauser wrote:
Is that YOUR project, Georg?
I am surprised that the keyhead being on or not the floating neck or at least attached butting into the floating neck is not shown or it is my project.
discussed (?)

Of course it is my project … finished around 2005-06.
Keyhead is in its original position on the original soundboard, with an expansion gap filled with rubber between the nut and the neck.

J D Sauser wrote:
Evidently (I know I used that word a LOT), one of the issues that MIGHT have come up is length changes of his neck due to temperature changes... and issues some Emmons-BoltOn critics claim to have experienced... but I have rarely heard metal neck-Bigsby owner complain about (maybe because they had other less trivial tuning issues to battle). I would love to hear about that.
By luck my idea of letting the neck expand/contract both ways relative to the original soundboard – roughly 2/3 towards the bridge and 1/3 towards the keyhead – hit the mark quite well. This converted Dekley has been left for hours in a parked car in temperatures below freezing, and stayed almost perfectly in tune during and after the warm-up period into the 70sF indoors – not needing a tune-up. Neck and strings seem to expand/contract pretty much in sync, with strings reacting faster to temp-changes (of course).

The laminated neck is rigid, and with the added weight of the bridge/changer the entire neck starts vibrating vertically with subharmonics of the string-tones against the real, original and quite thin, soundboard, after half a second or so.
"Vibrating through to the floor" barely describes the effect, and while the feedback from these subharmonics increases sustain a lot, it does not make strings "hang on last note played" or anything of that nature while playing at any speed or intensity. It just results in a very noticeable "blooming" effect, that gets transferred through to the amp.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 13 Jul 2022 3:23 pm    
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Georg Sørtun wrote:
J D Sauser wrote:
Is that YOUR project, Georg?
I am surprised that the keyhead being on or not the floating neck or at least attached butting into the floating neck is not shown or it is my project.
discussed (?)

Of course it is my project … finished around 2005-06.
Keyhead is in its original position on the original soundboard, with an expansion gap filled with rubber between the nut and the neck.

J D Sauser wrote:
Evidently (I know I used that word a LOT), one of the issues that MIGHT have come up is length changes of his neck due to temperature changes... and issues some Emmons-BoltOn critics claim to have experienced... but I have rarely heard metal neck-Bigsby owner complain about (maybe because they had other less trivial tuning issues to battle). I would love to hear about that.

By luck my idea of letting the neck expand/contract both ways relative to the original soundboard – roughly 2/3 towards the bridge and 1/3 towards the keyhead – hit the mark quite well. This converted Dekley has been left for hours in a parked car in temperatures below freezing, and stayed almost perfectly in tune during and after the warm-up period into the 70sF indoors – not needing a tune-up. Neck and strings seem to expand/contract pretty much in sync, with strings reacting faster to temp-changes (of course)....


Interesting concept on the 2/3-1/3 balance. Steel expands about half the rate as aluminum to temperature changes. So, with your 2/3 only aluminum exposure you get really close to the string expansion and contraction of the steel strings. Good thinking!
In the unlikely event of a 25 deg. Celsius temperature change your 2/3 section of your aluminum neck with change length about 0.1mm (which is considerable) BUT, your steel strings over the total scale length will change length about 0.19mm... so the effective difference will be about o.o6mm.

If we reduce the temperature fluctuation to normal "comfort levels of +/-5 deg. Celsius (10deg. total) we have 0.2mm on the 2/3 of the neck and o.o75mm on the scale length steel strings... resulting in a difference in length change of o.025mm.

Now lets look at WOOD!

Wood has WITH the grain an average CLTE of 3.8 - 4.9 (average 4.5) (metric):

On the last example of +/- 5 deg. Celsius (total 10 deg. fluctuation typically encountered in "living spaces") and for a length of 1 Meter (of which PSG scale lengths between 24" to 25" is an average of 0.625m)
Tab:

Wood:   4.5  x 1m x 10deg/1000 = 0.045mm/m
                                        Wood/Steel diff: 0.076mm/m (string tension DECREASE)
Steel  12.1 x 1m x 10deg / 1000 = 0.121mm/m
                                        Alu/Steel  diff:  0.113mm/m (string tension INCREASE)
Alu:   23.4 x 1m x 10deg/ 1000 = 0.234mm/m


at an average of 625mm scale length

Tab:

Wood:   4.5  x 1m x 10deg/1000 = 0.045mm/m x 0.625 = 0.028mm
                                                        Wood/Steel diff: 0.0575mm (string tension DECREASE)
Steel  12.1 x 1m x 10deg / 1000 = 0.121mm/m x 0.625 = 0.0756mm
                                                        Alu/Steel  diff:  0.07mm (string tension INCREASE)
Alu:   23.4 x 1m x 10deg/ 1000 = 0.234mm/m x 0.635 = 0.147mm


The difference between Steel on Wood and Steel on Aluminum is a fairly negligible 0.02mm (2/100's of a millimeter) over an average typical scale length within a 10deg. Celsius temperature change in favor of Steel over Wood. I think it puts the BoltOn detuning debate to rest.

The problem with different linear temperature fluctuation coefficients of scale material (aluminum sound-board in this case) and the steel core strings is not so much that they are elongating and contracting and thus changing tuning ever so slightly, rather the problem is the same length variation affects each string's tension and thus frequency change DIFFERENTLY from string to string.
So the tuning tends to become "uneven" from string to string. But it's MINIMAL, especially if you could pretty much cancel out body drop detuning.


Good discussion and it re-affirms my intention to build with a "floating-sound-board" design.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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