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Topic: Franken Fender |
Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2022 8:10 pm |
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| I have a Fender 800 that has a bad changer that I still want to play. I am curious if it is possible to drop in a more modern changer and still have it actuated with the cable system? |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 25 Jun 2022 8:52 pm
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A pull release changer would work. I thought about making a FrankenFender steel with a bunch of parts I have. I also have a ZB changer that would work with cables too, but a lot more work.
I would try to fix that changer first. What’s wrong with it?
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 3:23 am Re: Franken Fender
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| Paul Strojan wrote: |
| I have a Fender 800 that has a bad changer that I still want to play. I am curious if it is possible to drop in a more modern changer and still have it actuated with the cable system? |
The quick answer (for all practical purposes) is "no". On a Fender cable guitar, you're pulling the string to a "stop" which is actually part of the changer tuning mechanism. There are no pedal stops, as they're not required. Whereas, in a modern, all-pull guitar, (or even a pull/release design), there are pedal stops at the ends of the crossrods. You could say that in the cable design, you're pulling the string to a stop in the changer to make a note. And in an all-pull system, you're pulling a string away from a stop in the changer to make a note, but the amount of that pull is limited by the stops at the ends of the crossrods.
Of course, it could be done by adding some sort of adjustable pedal stops to the Fender, or adding crossrods and having cables activated by pullers on the rods. But you'd have to fabricate or jury-rig all the parts yourself, and that would be a ton of work.  |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 4:17 am
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Yes- what exactly is a “bad changer”? There can be many reasons but I’ve never really seen one go bad. Usually it’s gunked up old oil and dirt, the adjusting screws stripped or out of wack or the cables misaligned. Taking out the changer, disassembling it and cleaning it with naptha would be my first step. Even that is much less hassle that trying to shoehorn a different changer in there.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Michael Sawyer
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 4:42 am
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| What exactly has gone bad with the changer,if you don't mind me asking |
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Rick McNamara
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 8:06 am Franken Fender
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Donnie Hinson’s statement on the lack of a hard stop for the pedal on Fender PSG would be better stated as “an adjustable hard stop”.
Fender bellcrank assemblies that transfer motion from the downward pull of pedal to the horizontal pull of the cable have a stop included for over travel in either direction.
In theory depressed pedal position could be altered by adjusting the pull rod to tune the string to the desired tone change. |
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Rick McNamara
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 8:18 am Franken Fender
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 10:49 am
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Paul, I too am curious for more information about why your changer is "bad." What broke? What wore out?
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Mark Perrodin
From:
Tucson Arizona, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 11:14 am changer
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| awesome explanation Rick. i appreciate your know-how. you’ve helped me a lot over the past few years. folks, this guy knows fenders. |
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Mark Perrodin
From:
Tucson Arizona, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 11:16 am
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| he knows fenders and he knows rack and barrel buds too. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 12:53 pm
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Thanks for the responses.
My guitar got dropped on its changer sometime before I got it. I have had Tom Bradshaw go through the guitar and sort of make it work but it is not absolutely right.
I am thinking I could drop an all pull changer and actuate it with the cables eliminating the need for the cross shaft. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 1:05 pm
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Something must have bent when it was dropped…
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 1:06 pm Re: Franken Fender
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| Rick McNamara wrote: |
| Donnie Hinson’s statement on the lack of a hard stop for the pedal on Fender PSG would be better stated as “an adjustable hard stop”. |
My bad, Ricky.  I had "adjustable" in the second paragraph description, but left it out in the first.
| Quote: |
| In theory depressed pedal position could be altered by adjusting the pull rod to tune the string to the desired tone change. |
Except that adjusting the pull rod also raises and lowers the pedals, and reaching down to the pedals to tune a change is rather awkward. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 1:20 pm
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| Paul Strojan wrote: |
| ...I am thinking I could drop an all pull changer and actuate it with the cables eliminating the need for the cross shaft. |
Per your OP, it's possible, but it's not practical. It's kind of like putting a V-8 in VW. It's possible, but it's going to require a lot of work and other significant mods, no guarantee it's going to function well. Those old Fender changers are pretty stout, and as Donny said, they are designed to work with the cable pull system.
Cables have a slight give/stretch to them, this is useful when coupled with the stock changer, but even with pedal stops the tuning would not be very stable and consistent when those same cables are connected to a more modern all pull changer. You would need to devise a robust, tunable stop mechanism at the changer to be able to utilize the cables for pulling changes consistently. The stock changer already does this, very well, and it's all tunable from the end plate. What is it about your changer that is "not absolutely right"? Is something broken/missing/bent beyond repair?
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 2:01 pm
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FWIW, I have a changer from an old 2000 that someone parted out in Texas that I could sell for a reasonable price, it's the same as the 800. It does not have the fingers themselves, but all the internal mechanism is in good shape, just needs some cleaning up. The top plate and bottom cover are a little rough. I guess its potential usefulness to you would depend on which parts of yours are damaged. I've been saving it for a project, but I already have more of those than I'll ever be able to finish before I die, so just putting it out there in case you're interested.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 2:08 pm
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| What if I mounted a plate in front of the changer with holes drilled in it to align the pull rods with the changer fingers. Then I could just thread the pull rods and use a nut to serve as a stop. I would then use an eye nut on the other side of the plate to attach the cables. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 2:44 pm
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| Paul Strojan wrote: |
| What if I mounted a plate in front of the changer with holes drilled in it to align the pull rods with the changer fingers. Then I could just thread the pull rods and use a nut to serve as a stop. I would then use an eye nut on the other side of the plate to attach the cables. |
That would work, that's similar to the tuning mechanism on a Sho-Bud Fingertip, adapted to all-pull so it's only stopping in one direction. Functionally that's how the stock Fender system works too but they achieved it in a different way with the slide bars, wire loops and tuning screws on the other side of the scissor. With threaded nuts to tune the stops like you describe it would all be underneath the guitar, so a bit of hassle to tune. You could also route out a channel and mill out a window in the end plate to tune with the typical nylon nuts. In that case, the inner stops you described could just be set collars like on a PP. The 800 changer is offset quite ways from the end plate, so would need a lot of spacers to bring the tuning nuts out to an accessible location. You would need multiple rods for strings with different pulls (i.e. the typical E9 string 4 half-step / whole-step raise). That's how the stock Fender changer works too. You would also have to account for the body thickness of your 800. That may or may not be an issue depending on the changer used and the overall length of the finger/scissor assembly, but you would likely need to hog out a big space underneath to mount it all, perhaps recess the top of the body to get the strings on the correct plane.
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All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest - Paul Simon |
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Rick McNamara
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 5:01 pm Franken Fender
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Hey Paul,
Before you give up on the Fender changer. I had an acquaintance that was having problems with his Fender 800 changer.
His guitar had also been dropped and it turns out it put a slight bend(only visible with a straight edge) in the knife edge at the front of the slot in the plate that’s in the lower right hand corner of Ian’s picture. The bend in the edge was a curve up with the plate in “as mounted” position.
That knife edge is the pivot point for the 10 string holders that load into the slot. It put some of the string holders in a bind and the changer would not work correctly.
If you take all the tension off the strings and remove the dust cover(if it has one) over the string holders you may be able to get a straight edge close enough to the front edge of the slot to check it for straightness.
I sent out a new(good used) plate to John and that solved the problem!
Just a thought!
Rick |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jun 2022 8:47 pm
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The slots in the bottom changer plate have a very close tolerance, and the raise and lower fingers can get bound very easily if the top or bottom of the changer shifts, or if the fingers are sprung a little (which can sometimes happen when you clean them - been there, done that).  That "tolerance issue" is another reason that the earlier guitars have such strong return springs, so the changer would still operate reliably if something went askew. Careful adjustment of the fingers, and polishing the slots a tiny bit, will restore proper function.
The only "problems" I've seen with the Fender changers were stripped tuning screws, broken loops on the screw adjusters, and broken slots in the bottom plate. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 27 Jun 2022 1:48 am
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| Paul Strojan wrote: |
| What if I mounted a plate in front of the changer with holes drilled in it to align the pull rods with the changer fingers. Then I could just thread the pull rods and use a nut to serve as a stop. I would then use an eye nut on the other side of the plate to attach the cables. |
I think you’d be putting yourself through an awful lot of trouble for questionable results. I’d take Ian’s offer seriously or check those things Donny mentioned. Maybe you’d be better off selling the Fender to a person who’s into Fenders and getting a more modern pedal steel rather that jumping through all those hoops and risking really messing the thing up. I think you really want a different guitar.
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Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2022 5:13 pm
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| Thanks for all the responses. Currently, the only mechanical issue with the guitar is the E to Eb lower change is spongy and has too much travel. I will take Ian up on his offer for the spare spare parts. I really love the ergonomics of the Fender. I do want to add some knee levers to the guitar However they need to extend a few inches behind the guitar to allow my feet to line up with the pedals. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2022 11:57 am
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| Paul Strojan wrote: |
Thanks for the responses.
My guitar got dropped on its changer sometime before I got it. I have had Tom Bradshaw go through the guitar and sort of make it work but it is not absolutely right.
I am thinking I could drop an all pull changer and actuate it with the cables eliminating the need for the cross shaft. |
I suggest posting pictures of it on the Facebook Fender Pedal Steel group. We have (I think) over a thousand members now, and about 25-30 active experts in the mechanics that can help. Sound like you may just need advice or a few replacement parts - and we can come up with both.
My thought is that you must have bent one or more fingers. or the "bellcranks" (the pedal rod to cable levers). the latter can be replaced, are universal (regardless of type) and a bunch of us have spares laying around.
The other thing - unless you bought that after someone had completely serviced it, the entire changer needs to be dismantled, degreased, polished...same with the large pulley(s)..reassembled - and never oiled agin - lubed ONLY with dry Teflon. Oil breaks down, is a dirt magnet, and because of the "scissor" design of the Fender changers the worst lubricant other than WD40. Use either DRY Teflon - or nothing at all.
We have documents about all this stuff in the "files" section. But - no offense to my long-time friends here - there are a tiny fraction of the active Fender players on this forum, as it's not brand specific.
Good luck! Tell them I sent you...oh, doesn't matter - I'm an Admin, I'll see it! 
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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