E9th + C6th = D13th, from D-10 to S-12

Johnny Cox · Posted 21 Jun 2022 6:11 am

Roger, might I suggest on P8 that you lower string 7 to F as opposed to raising string 8. It gives you the normal 8th pedal plus by moving back to the 8th string you have the minor 7th in the low side like Chalker did a lot. Also eliminates the need for canceling the 8th string raise and lower. Those can be a beast to tune.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Johnny:

Check your PMs, please.

One slight revision on my D-10 set up early in the thread: my P8 also raises the 1st to D#. It's not of great importance at this point, though.

b0b's charts are terrific but that technology is beyond me. I've no doubt that omitted to include that pull when I sent him my D10 setup.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

You lost me there, Dumplin. Confused

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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Here's the latest chart which takes Johnny's suggestion into account.

I'm still waiting to pull the trigger on a new guitar; I have an operation tomorrow (6/24) and I just want to be sure I wake up after the anesthetic before I send a deposit!! Smile

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

You might consider adding a pull to your P3 (your A pedal) : raise string 6 B to C natural. That will avoid the problems of sympathetic vibration of the unison B on string 5. The unison B is a useful effect, and is still available with strings 2 and 6. And if you don't like the raise to C, just loosen the tuning nut and it goes away.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm afraid that, at least for a while, I'd catch that C note on the 'extra' string. It's certainly a nice sus 4 with the A and B pedal (I wanted that, anyway: see RKL) but what would have greater consequences: a slightly dissonant overtone or a wrong note?

I should have more self-belief and be confident that I'll get the new 'grips' down quickly, though. Smile

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

On D6th I have a pedal that raises A to B. I sometimes use the B to C knee lever along with it to avoid that sympathetic vibration, especially on slow songs.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

The more I ponder it, the more I like Earnest's suggestion. As he points out, I can roll it off if it doesn't work for me.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

It could come in useful, of course, IF I can learn to pick around it when I have to.

But that was was the point of the B-C raise on RKL - a fat 7th chord open and a sus 4 pedals down. Confused

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

I've had mine setup both with and without the B-C raise on the A-pedal. I often think of A + B as a big C root Major 7 chord so having the B-C on A makes a lot of sense to me. You could have it in both places and just keep it on RKL too.

The sympathetic vibration with the A pedal and string 5 can be annoying when you are pick blocking or doing long slides on and off the A pedal. You need to dedicate a finger to muting it to keep things clean. I think it's less of an issue with palm blocking because you regularly mute all the strings.

One more thought, if you add B-C on the A-pedal you can still get the unison Bs with your C pedal. I really like that sound and use it all the time.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Good thinking, Lee. I like the idea more and more.

I'm ordering on Monday so, while the actual setup does need to be written in stone quite yet, I feel we're almost, if not completely, there.

I have a hankering for a lower on the 12th down to B but we don't think there's a logical place. It's not worth another pedal!

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

Isn't D to B on string 12 on your P7 or has that changed since the last revision?

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Ignore what I posted re: P7 (and about a solitary low B. I wasn't thinking clearly, what with 5.30 am dialysis today and surgery later.

With the exception of adding the B-C on P3 as per Earnest's suggestion, I think the chart is finished.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Here's the finished setup. It takes both Johnny Cox' and Earnest Bovine's suggestions into account.

Splits are as follows:

Str 4: LKL2/P6 = D#
Str 6: P3 with P4 = A#
Str 11: P3 with P4 = A#

I should add that, while it's a stretch, I can get LKL2 and P6 together on my Emmons D-10 (I checked to see if I could) so it should be possible on the new guitar.

Johnny Cox · Posted 25 Jun 2022 5:13 pm

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Right. That m7 will be useful.

How do you think it looks? I'm happy with it.

Darren Mortillaro · From: Nevada, USA

I ordered a S12 from MSA, and gave them this copedent below. Hopefully this is still considered the best setup.

Question, once I get my steel, can anyone here help me with lessons? We could do them remotely or somewhere in ATX.

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

Darren, your copedent looks great. There is no perfect setup, just preferences. Yours is roughly the same changes as mine or roger's but some of the pedals/levers are in different spots. You aren't missing anything so I wouldn't worry about change anything until you've spent enough time with it that you know what you want to change Smile

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Darren:

That looks fine. It's different from mine in a couple ways ('Day' vs. 'Emmons', for one); your P4, I have on my LKV is just one example. I have your RKL on my left knee.

One thing, though: we have deliberately placed my new P4 (old C6 P5) adjacent to my A pedal (P3). That way, if I engage P3 and 4, they'll be split to ensure an accurate G#(Ab) on string 6. That does away with the need for my much-used old E9 B-to-A# lever (RKL on my current D10). I'm not troubled by the lower B not lowering; I only rarely used that lower on the 10th (E9).

I did consider an 8th pedal but I doubt I could reach it at the same time as using the left knee-levers.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I thought I'd update this thread and share the coped that's gone to the builder.

There have been a couple of amendments since the last chart I posted above (dated 6/26).

I've moved that LKV A-G lower (it would be defeated by the split-tune between P3 and P4 - essential for me that that split is accurate) and added the 8th string raise to G#. It was a favourite pull of mine on E9 but I let it slip for some reason.

I have removed the lower A pedal raise to enable the 4/5 chord. Should I want that note, it's available on the 10th with RKR.

I have one more thought: getting a low F#. It's on P7 but that changes the chord too much. IF the builder says it's doable (and won't make things too stiff), I'll add it to LKL1 and lower the 11th.
(Edited to add: I'm already using the three 'lowers' on the 11th. I could raise the 12th to F#.)

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

"I think you meant to say RKL".

The 5th bass note under the 4 chord is available with either RKL or RKR; neither would affect the top end of the chord.

I'm looking for a low F# to be used in isolation. It's also the minor 6 in A. I can't foresee using it with P7.

As for raising 12 on LKL1, the integrity of the B,F#,B (P7) would be unaffected unless I engaged LKL1.

I can't know for certain, but I feel that a low 3rd could prove useful. We have a low 1,3 and 5 for G major but not for the tuning's root chord.

I may be gilding the lily at this point, but studying Gary Carter's 'And So it Goes' and the efficacy of his detuned 10th string (G# - a low 3rd in E, a minor 6 in the key he plays it in: B) got me thinking.

That correlation with Gary's detuned 10th would mean having a low F# (D tuning) or, in A major (= B in E9), the F# is, of course, the minor 6th. It seems to me that adding it to LKL1 couldn't hurt anything. Okay, I'll finish up with a bunch of F#s, but I like that option on a low string.

I know this is a hybrid tuning and conducive to 'thinking in D', but my LKL1 (raising 1,2,7) is distinctly on the '9th' side of things rather than the '6th'.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Putting the low F# on a LKL1 would basically defeat the purpose of P7 by removing the major 3rd of the chord (string 8). You would be losing more than you gain.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

b0b:

I can't conceive of using LKL1 and P7 together. For one thing, it'd be a physical challenge. LKL2 - lowering the Ds - and P6 is possible, but not LKL1 which is on the back apron and furthest left.

I can't see a musical application for P7 and LKL1. If I'm not engaging LKL1 (raising 12,8,2 1) at the same time as P7, how is P7's function affected?

One reason for switching my two LKLs was to enable the Ds to be lowered while using the far-right pedals.

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