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Topic: BAAAAD new strings (can't bring her to "sing" in tune?) |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 22 May 2022 11:42 am |
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I am currently in Colombia, where I had some surgery, recuperating just fine. Knowing it would be "a while", I took a long my newer super compact Excel Superb S12 I bought here from a fellow Forumite and which, if you follow the new "Builder's Corner" here, I modified to have 3 front hung vertical levers to keep myself busy and maybe annoy some Colombians with StrayCat noises.
Anyways, I restrung yesterday evening with brand new strings of a brand with which boasts one of the best know steel player's name.
The process ended up in total frustration at 04:00 in the morning, time upon which I collapsed on the couch totally fed up and wondering if I'd rather play an electronic piano. I could NOT bring that thing to play in tune along the neck!
ONE wound string I replaced at 03:00 in the morning because it developed "funny" overtones which I could not find amusing... but the fight went on.
My 4ths and 5ths would just not stay in tune as I moved up and down the neck. I tried tuning at the 11th fret (no harmonics) and open would sound like an old watery can... even the at the 1st or 2nd fret. Don't even mention adding pedals! Bah!
I got up at 11:00 in the morning, still in Colombia... Salsa music and Vallenato already filling the streets. Believe me or not, I like it. A LOT.
So, I have breakfast and just barely look at that instrument from the corner of my view.
As a get back at it, I retune open to the tuner all straight, no pedals.
I test my "every second string"-5ths and 4ths and they are pure... lay the bar on and go up... already it gets from bad to worse.
So, I pick 3 strings in 4ths & 5ths.... the extremes being octaves, they ARE stable... the sting in the middle is the one drops 25 cents (quarter of a half-tone!) by the 8th fret! I check all other groups... and it's just that one.
So, I take it off, open a new set (while insulting it) and install the new string. VOILÁ, as the French say. DUNNE! as they say 5500miles to the West of France.
So, two bad string in one set! One acting up "funny" and the other one, probably conical wound, inconstant winding diameter or tension.
Had me fantasize about becoming a keyboard player!
Just over 2 years ago, I took delivery of my MSA S12 which is at Jim Palenscar's for some mods. It is an awesome sounding guitar. The first PSG after almost 20 years. Almost immediately upon getting it, started changing my setup, my tuning and after that, I decided to put new strings on it and to my dismay, I could NOT get it to play in tune for DAYS.
I have re-rodded and modded many guitars, even push-pulls, built prototypes in the past and have a degree in precision machine engineering... but I really started to doubt my mind for a while. I went so far to pull out ALL hex tuners to make sure "my" changes could not possibly affect the guitar. Still, I could not get it to play in tune. I bought measuring devices to see if anything in the hardware "gave" away, was loose, misaligned, not "square". The guitar checked out the perfect an MSA is known to be. I started doubting my ears, I had played in the past much mechanically and precision-wise much inferior guitars, some real vintage models too and managed to be in-tune. Not anymore, apparently.
Finally I decided I didn't like the abrasiveness/drag of the new stainless strings I put on and ordered a few Nickel set from the same manufacturer MSA ships their guitars out with. BAM! In tune!
BAD strings! It just takes ONE pesky little one. Tonight I was the "lucky" recipient of TWO of them, and it threw me off, looking too far instead of what was wobbling in my face.
So, IF one day you can't seem to get'er in tune, don't call "her" names... just check pure intervals along the neck and octaves, most likely you have a string that wasn't meant to give you the love you deserve.
... J-D.
_________________
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 May 2022 5:27 pm
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When you restring, tune open, and then place bar at the 12th fret and strum slowly. Any bad string(s) will stick out like a junkie at a NARC's convention.  |
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Roy Carroll
From:
North of a Round Rock
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Posted 24 May 2022 5:20 am
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Donny, as usual, you are correct. Any bad string will stand out. I have opened new sets of strings and had the black spots on the 5th and 6th. Makes me angry that we pay good money for bad strings. I have not had that happen until recently. Maybe it is a shortage of materials?
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Just north of the Weird place, south of Georgetown |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 24 May 2022 6:59 am
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| Roy Carroll wrote: |
| Donny, as usual, you are correct. Any bad string will stand out. I have opened new sets of strings and had the black spots on the 5th and 6th. Makes me angry that we pay good money for bad strings. I have not had that happen until recently. Maybe it is a shortage of materials? |
I used a Nashville company brand of strings for many years. There were "black spotted" strings frequently. I used them and didn't seem to cause any problems.
Last couple years I've used SIT's and so far no black spot strings.
Difference in packaging may be part of the cause. The Nashville brand still uses old fashion packaging with paper envelopes for each string. SIT strings sets come in a sealed package and individual strings are also in sealed packaging.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 May 2022 11:51 am
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Black spots are not a symptom of the bad string problem. Only today I restrung my Excel and noticed that a couple of strings had developed spots since I put them on but were still functioning perfectly.
In order to give accurate tuning throughout its length a string must have uniform mass per unit length. Parameters that can affect this are variations in diameter (unlikely with a wire drawn through a die) or variations in density caused by impurities in the metal, which sadly is going to occur now and then and result in a bad string. JD's experience with two bad 'uns is statistical and is caused by extreme bad luck!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 24 May 2022 5:20 pm
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My experience with black spots on new strings is they have not been stored correctly. And believe you me black spots will give you nightmares. Strings should be stored in your house that is cooled by an A.C. and heated by your heating system. Humidity is the problem. Do not leave in your case or seat in the garage. I put mine in a zip lock bag and keep in my dresser. No more problems. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 25 May 2022 2:01 am
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| J R Rose wrote: |
| My experience with black spots on new strings is they have not been stored correctly. And believe you me black spots will give you nightmares. Strings should be stored in your house that is cooled by an A.C. and heated by your heating system. Humidity is the problem. Do not leave in your case or seat in the garage. I put mine in a zip lock bag and keep in my dresser. No more problems. J.R. Rose |
When I first moved to Florida from Kansas City in 1996 I was concerned about the Florida humidity on strings. I always bought a dozen sets (E9th and C6th) and wanted to keep them protected. I individually sealed each set with my wife's kitchen vacuum sealer. Several years later I stopped sealing them and it made no difference.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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John Sims
From:
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
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Posted 26 May 2022 6:48 am
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Get well soon JD! See ya when you get back to FLA... 
_________________
Regards,
John
Steelin' is a way of life!
1997 Carter U-12 Double Body-Natural Birdseye Maple-8p/5k, Peavey Nashville 1000 Amp, Goodrich L10K Vol. Pedal, Boss DD-3 Delay, Boss CE-5 Chorus, Behringer UMC-204HD Audio Interface, AKAI MPK Mini MK3 Professional Midi Keyboard/Controller, Gretsch Bobtail Resonator, Fender Banjo, Rondo SX Lap Steel (C6), DIY Lap Steel (Open D), a few Mojo Hand Cigar Box Guitars (MojoHandGuitars.com). |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 May 2022 2:02 pm
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I mentioned above that I'd restrung my uni 12 Excel, and the concensus at tonight's rehearsal was that it sounded better in tune. This makes me wonder whether old strings start to become uneven in density or elasticity.
But changing them is a good thing - I think I knew that!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 May 2022 9:15 pm
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| John Sims wrote: |
| Get well soon JD! See ya when you get back to FLA... |
THANKS John! Gettin' better every day!
| Ian Rae wrote: |
I mentioned above that I'd restrung my uni 12 Excel, and the concensus at tonight's rehearsal was that it sounded better in tune. This makes me wonder whether old strings start to become uneven in density or elasticity.
But changing them is a good thing - I think I knew that! |
"dead" strings loose harmonic "definition", especially wound strings. Dull sounds suggestive of "out of tune".
Yes, strings on a PSG have a tough life due to constant tension changes.
Additionally, like guitarists' strings, they are being touched, but not only by hand but metal, often "steel"... so they get "flats" and our perspiration and "oils" deteriorate strings. Comparably, piano strings which stay put and are not to be touched (grand piano players can become quite unfriendly when one thinks it's "cool" to fumble around the strings, because they do get black spots which adversely affect tone) will last for years, even decades.
Plucking stings, even worse with metal picks also affects strings around a fairly small spot wich makes them further un-even.
New strings "sparkle", yet need some time to settle... but, unless there's one or two "bad" ones in the set, they sound better for a good 10 days of daily playing. I just don't know anyone who claims to "enjoy" changing them, credibly.
Interestingly, some of the ol' Swing players were said to keep their plain strings on as long as possibly. Jerry Byrd confirmed this to me too, not only where his top 3 string on C6 (E being the highest) all plain o.018's (yes, ALL 3 E, C, A!) for more similar mass and "tone", but in early days he swore on Gibson strings. This was a close kept "secret" of JB and his close "circle".
He also confirmed that would keep them on even turned "black". Some people's "oils" turn strings patina black over time (apparently I don't, I TRIED, believe me).
All being said here making sense, I do believe that uneven, defective strings are technically a difficult issue to evade. There are so many variables:
- Core diameter consistency
- Winding diameter consistency
- Winding tension consistency
- storage (many of the new strings come in vacuumed packs, sometimes individually)
... come to mind.
This time, it just got me good. REAL "good".
Gypsy Jazz acoustic silver plated wound strings are extremely weather sensitive. Healthy new wound strings sound extremely "sparkly"... but humidity just dulls them in a heart beat.
I played at outdoor events in France and Germany in Summers and they barely lasted thru the week end.
In Florida and in the Caribbean I resorted to store them in my air-circulated freezer. It's worked as a storage. Else, paper envelope packed wound "Argentine"-strings would be dead after 3 months before being strung on.
... J-D.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 May 2022 9:19 am
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
| I just don't know anyone who claims to "enjoy" changing them, credibly. |
I don't mind. My keyless Williams is very simple to do.
The Excel is more complicated but the only real difficulty is that the 3rd string (0.011" at 25½" scale) is a bit nerve-wracking to tension up. You have to budget for popping a couple before you get one to hold. Even Mitsuo says he doesn't enjoy this part. That said, once settled in I've never had one break while playing.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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