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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 14 May 2022 8:51 am    
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Many years ago I envisioned a pro-level S-6 with 4+4 designed with guitar players in mind. It would have an all-pull changer, wide string spacing and a keyless head. Also an unusual body design. I created a web site about it, but one has never been built. See https://pedalcaster.wordpress.com/

Would any of you like to bid on building a prototype? Or even partner in a commercial endeavor to make a marketable product? This would not be an "entry level" S-6 as several builders have produced, but a modern, fully capable pedal steel with a double raise, double lower changer. Maybe even tunable splits. It would have 2 pickups and the kind of controls that guitarists are used to, and be easy to customize as guitarists like to do.

Email me at b0b@steelguitarnews.com (not the forum address) if this project interests you.


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Andy DePaule


From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
Post  Posted 14 May 2022 10:37 pm     Interesting idea Bob.
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Interesting idea Bob,
What kind of tuning would you have in mind?
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Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Long E6/9th.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 15 May 2022 3:52 am    
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Andy... he ,listed 3 tunings on the page in the first link. All are pretty cool and basic. I really like B0B's thinking. B0B is a copedent genius in my opinion.

B0B...
I do have some curiosity questions though.

1. Is this intended to be built like a normal PSG on legs with an undercarriage, but with a Strat body (or other bodies, like an SG as an option), or a pedal setup with cables like Phil Baugh used?

2. Would the copedents be fixed or modifiable? With a 2R/2L changer, I would assume it is modifiable.

3. The C6 tuning has the bottom C raised to C# on P4 and the top C to C# on RKR. Is there a reason they are not on the same pedal or lever? I know on many 10 string C6 copedents (including mine), the lower C (string 7 on a 10 string) is raised on P8 along with the strings 9 & 10 lowers (my LKL), but it doesn't raise the high C (string 3 on a 10 string) to C# (I have it on RKR). I have no idea why, but there must be a reason. Can you enlighten me? I might be tempted to put both C to C # raises on RKR to free up P4 for something else, like lowering E's to Eb for minor chords in the no pedals position, same as lowering the G#'s to G on an E9, a change you see 6 string guitar players want when considering a PSG because it is similar to minoring a bar (or open) chords on a regular guitar at the same fret. I would probably put the reverse pedal 6 change on P4. Raising the lower E to F and lowering the high E to Eb, giving those minor chords, albeit on 2 different pedals. But lowering both E's to Eb on the same pedal/lever would give a full strummable Cm chord on all 6 strings.

4. If aiming for the 6 string guitar market, I might also come up with an E6 tuning that a 6 stringer that doesn't want to learn a C based tuning, and the weird fret positions, might want. But, the tone of the bigger strings might not be as pleasant to a regular guitar player. Of course, they could tune down to B6. But I think I would want to have the same fret positions as on my regular guitar.

Disclaimer: I am not a regular 6 string guitar or slide guitar player (although I would love to learn slide guitar), so my vision of these copedents is from a PSG player's point of view.

Good luck in this venture. I like it.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 15 May 2022 6:48 am    
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Richard,

1. It would be a rectangular box like all pedal steels, but the "neck" would look a lot like a guitar body and neck. I think that the box would be black, and all color or natural wood finish would be on the "neck".

2. Copedent totally modifiable.

3. Pedal 8 on C6th evolved from Jerry Byrd's raising of the low C to C#. The resulting 7#9 chord is a mainstay of C6th playing style. To raise both C's, use pedal and lever like Buddy did.

4. The tuning and copedent could be anything. The ones on the site are just what I though of when designing the web page. I would probably tune my own to G B D F# A D (though I haven't given the pedals much thought).

Andy, want to build one? Very Happy
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 15 May 2022 8:49 am    
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Quote:
3. Pedal 8 on C6th evolved from Jerry Byrd's raising of the low C to C#. The resulting 7#9 chord is a mainstay of C6th playing style. To raise both C's, use pedal and lever like Buddy did.


Can't say I have ever had any need for the Hendrix chord. But a guitar or slide guitar player might. I do have both the C raises on separate levers, LKL & RKR so I just spread my legs if I need both C#s for any reason.

Could you design a 43 string model with a Gold plated White Falcon Body? Just kidding. Very Happy

Maybe approach someone like Barry Thomas if Andy (a good choice) doesn't do it.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 15 May 2022 10:24 am    
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Quote:
3. Pedal 8 on C6th evolved from Jerry Byrd's raising of the low C to C#. The resulting 7#9 chord is a mainstay of C6th playing style. To raise both C's, use pedal and lever like Buddy did.
Richard Sinkler wrote:
Can't say I have ever had any need for the Hendrix chord.

I often lower the high C with RKL when using P8, for a regular 9th chord. That's another reason not to raise both C's to C# together.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 18 May 2022 8:19 pm     Re: Build a Prototype to My Specs?
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b0b wrote:
Many years ago I envisioned a pro-level S-6 with 4+4 designed with guitar players in mind. It would have an all-pull changer, wide string spacing and a keyless head. Also an unusual body design. I created a web site about it, but one has never been built. See https://pedalcaster.wordpress.com/

Would any of you like to bid on building a prototype? Or even partner in a commercial endeavor to make a marketable product? This would not be an "entry level" S-6 as several builders have produced, but a modern, fully capable pedal steel with a double raise, double lower changer. Maybe even tunable splits. It would have 2 pickups and the kind of controls that guitarists are used to, and be easy to customize as guitarists like to do.

Email me at b0b@steelguitarnews.com (not the forum address) if this project interests you.




B0B, even thou there is a picture of an electric standard guitar, this is a horizontal 6 strings with pedals and levers, right?

... J-D.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 18 May 2022 9:04 pm    
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That's a picture of the neck, which includes guitar pickups and controls. It sits on the rectangular pedal steel body.

Sorry that it's not clear. The original is a full-size pencil sketch on poster board. It was too big to scan and hard to photograph.
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Per Berner


From:
Skâvde, Sweden
Post  Posted 18 May 2022 11:58 pm    
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A little clearer this way.


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George Piburn


From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
Post  Posted 19 May 2022 11:03 am     Single builder for the entire project.
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Deleted Very Happy

Last edited by George Piburn on 20 May 2022 8:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tony Oresteen


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 19 May 2022 11:08 am    
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b0b,

Interesting. I have been playing guitar since 1968 and have 140ish guitars right now. I am what you call a "standup guitar player".

Why not get rid of the knee levers and go with say 5 pedals so a "guitar player" can play it standing up?

What guitar players want is an open chord tuning that they can change to a minor chord, a b7 chord, a major 7th chord, and a sus4 chord. 95% of them have never played a diminished chord (well, at least knowing that they just played a diminished chord) and a few know what an augmented chord is (thank you George Harrison and Paul for "Oh, Darling").

Please do not make "power chords" possible Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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'72 Sho-Bud 6139 '71 Marlen 210 '78 Fender Stringmaster T8 black


Last edited by Tony Oresteen on 20 May 2022 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 19 May 2022 10:45 pm    
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Just to be clear, I am not a guitar builder. I'm not even a very good steel guitar mechanic. I'm a total klutz with power tools. I just have this crazy idea and I'm hoping one of you could turn it into something real.

Tony: Stand up pedal steel guitars have always been a flop. Sho~Bud tried it, Sierra tried it. Playing pedal steel standing up is awkward. A few people have done it successfully, but it's never really caught on. On the other hand, the low cost S-6 pedal steels have been doing quite well. I think the market might be ready for a pro model.
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Tony Oresteen


From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 20 May 2022 7:36 am    
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b0b wrote:
...

Tony: Stand up pedal steel guitars have always been a flop. Sho~Bud tried it, Sierra tried it. Playing pedal steel standing up is awkward. A few people have done it successfully, but it's never really caught on. On the other hand, the low cost S-6 pedal steels have been doing quite well. I think the market might be ready for a pro model.


Opps, forgot my reply....

I do not disagree with you that PSG is awkward standing up IF they are set up like a PSG. People play "lap" steel (and DorBro) standing up all the time (I do and have done so for years). I saw America in 1975/76 perform in Madison WI and when they played "Sister Golden Hair" they used a stand up lap steel guitar for the main riff.

Guitarist want to be able to STRUM. It's in their DNA (It's in mine). That's why I suggested having the pedals make familiar chords rather than change scales. So the design should allow different copedents: one scale based and one that is chord based.

Heck, maybe we make it a double neck with the inside neck set to chord strumming, and the outer neck set melody playing. Call the inner neck "Rhythm" and the outer neck "Lead"



Jackson makes a stand-up PSG: the SlideKing PSG. It is offered in 6, 8, or 10 string versions:

https://www.jacksonsteelguitar.com/product/slideking-pedal-steel-guitar-2/

6 string version cost is around $3,000. It is also available in a sit down version 6, 8, or 10 string versions.



MSA introduced the The Travis Toy Tour Pro legend XL Ten - Six last year:

https://msapedalsteels.com/the-tour-pro-legend-10-6

It's a sit down PSG. The 6 string neck is a lap steel no pedals. Bring your checkbook. Cost is a low $9,000. Extra pedals & knees are $300 each.


So I do think there is a market for 6 string lap and PSG guitars. Otherwise Jackson & MSA would not be making them.






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Newnan, GA

Too many guitars, not enough time to play
'72 Sho-Bud 6139 '71 Marlen 210 '78 Fender Stringmaster T8 black
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 21 May 2022 9:53 am    
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Tony Oresteen wrote:
Guitarist want to be able to STRUM. It's in their DNA (It's in mine). That's why I suggested having the pedals make familiar chords rather than change scales. So the design should allow different copedents: one scale based and one that is chord based.

That's the concept behind the Open E copedent:

https://pedalcaster.wordpress.com/open-e-copedent/

It gives you strummable major, minor, and 7th chords.

Many people play "lap steel" standing up, but pushing pedals while standing is not an easy feat. I wouldn't want to go there. The outer fringe of a fringe market, IMHO.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 21 May 2022 6:28 pm     Re: Single builder for the entire project.
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George Piburn wrote:
Deleted Very Happy

I may take you up on that, George. Very Happy
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Johnie King


From:
Tennessee, USA
Post  Posted 24 May 2022 10:15 am    
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Built this 9 years ago for Zane.
4 pedals
4 knees

Basically a 8 string guitar, with a pedal steel changer. Built with intonation capabilities for
playing using frets or a bar.






Last edited by Johnie King on 24 May 2022 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Johnie King


From:
Tennessee, USA
Post  Posted 24 May 2022 10:30 am    
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Jackson steel company they are the most innovative steel company I'm thinking.
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George Piburn


From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
Post  Posted 27 May 2022 3:46 am     We can do a lot to make this become reality.
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Bob Thanks for your response,

Before realizing you asked for a single builder to proto your ideas, I took the time to mentally design it for you.

I have the know how, experience and machinery to make the wood top - neck - guitar shape - various holes - pockets all in one piece CNC sculptured from a solid one plank.

All you need to do is get some one like Johnie King to add the pedal works onto the bottom just like all pedal steels are made.

I got mixed up when your early posts said . "Partner with other makers"

If you want to talk seriously about - GetterDone- reality - I can get you more than 1/2 way there.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 27 May 2022 6:30 am     Calling it quits.
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Thanks for the responses, everybody. After some soul-searching, I've come to the conclusion that I have too many irons in the fire to give this project the attention it deserves. At this stage of my life, embarking on yet another business venture or even a large vanity project would take time away from the more important things (family, health, home, the Forum, etc.). I shouldn't do that.

So, I'm abandoning the idea. Maybe someone else will see the potential and bring the idea to fruition. I just don't have the time and energy to do it.

I really appreciate of the responses. They helped me immensely. Thank you all!
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2022 4:46 pm     Re: Calling it quits.
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b0b wrote:
Thanks for the responses, everybody. After some soul-searching, I've come to the conclusion that I have too many irons in the fire to give this project the attention it deserves. At this stage of my life, embarking on yet another business venture or even a large vanity project would take time away from the more important things (family, health, home, the Forum, etc.). I shouldn't do that.

So, I'm abandoning the idea. Maybe someone else will see the potential and bring the idea to fruition. I just don't have the time and energy to do it.

I really appreciate of the responses. They helped me immensely. Thank you all!



ONE of my personal reasons I lobbied you into giving us this Builder's Corner, was for me to find someone or some people which are steel-guitar-related to eventually build my ideas too.

I think we start getting some sources and ideas of whom to ask for certain task. I have however come to the conclusion that it will likely NOT be only ONE source or builder.
There are too many "sides" to a steel guitar project, including understanding wood, lacquer, aluminum machining and possibly welding, working with stamped sheet metal etc and assembly (which many tool shops will NOT do).

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


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